A Seminar in Cyperspace:
Prof. Peter Kollock's Sociology 285K/197H
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A Seminar in Cyperspace:
Prof. Peter Kollock's Sociology 285K/197H
Department of Sociology
University of California at Los Angeles
Spring, 1993
Edited by Bruce Henstell
izzyok9@mvs.oac.ucla.edu
CONTENTS
Editor's Introduction, Including a Brief Note
Regarding Peter Kollock
iii
Invitation to a Virtual Seminar, and Sociology
285K/197H Reading List
viii
A Note Regarding the Transcript, and the
Conventions of MediaMOO
xvi
The Transcript
1
An Afterword
xix
Editor's Introduction
I thought I knew what to expect. I should preface that
statement with a personal note.
As the 1992-1993 school year began, I was looking around for
a seminar outside of my home school and ended up taking Prof.
Melvin Pollner's seminar in EPOS: Ethnomethodological,
phenomenological and observational sociology. About all I knew of
the subject as the class began was that that was a mouthful.
Taking this seminar, over the faint objections of Prof. Pollner
who was not precisely sure what someone from something called
library/information science wanted with EPOS, proved to be an wise
decision. It was masterful introduction to a complex body of thought,
which, it seemed to me, offered a number of insights into my field.
And, it was thoroughly enjoyable to boot. I was primed and ready to
take a flier, then, when Prof. Pollner mentioned in passing that in the
spring there would be offered a seminar on cyperspace.
As a Ph.D. student in Library/Information Science at UCLA I
had had some background, and strong interest in, what sometimes is
called the network environment, but which I can never think of
hereafter as anything but cyperspace.
When the spring approached Prof. Pollner suggested I talk with
Prof. Peter Kollock would be conducting the seminar. We chatted
briefly one afternoon, and he readily agreed to my taking the course.
A few days after this meeting it occurred to me that Prof. Kollock had
only briefly mentioned his interests in sociology, social construction
and a vague interest in Ethnomethodology. He really hadn't said very
much. I knew nothing, really, about where Prof. Kollock was coming
from other than he had won an award for distinguished teaching,
which rates high in my book. I called him back a few days later and
suggested that since I had some time over break, if there were any
theoretical materials he thought someone from outside the field
should have, I was willing to do some extra reading. He indicated
that wouldn't be necessary.
Like I said, I thought I knew what to expect. And that included
a lot of reading and a lot of theoretical reading and a lot of
theoretical exegesis. Sociology loves formal analysis.
I knew this seminar was to be something else again when we
gathered for the first meeting. First, half the class was drawn from
fields outside sociology, including electrical engineering, English,
women's studies and even a young women from biology, I think it
was (I'm not too sure what they call themselves down on the south
side of campus). And, instead of diving into deep textual waters,
Kollock encouraged the class, from the outset, to describe feelings
and perceptions, and, as we moved along, to relate experiences in
cyperspace, surfing the Internet, following odd pathways through
Usenet, or stumbling through the corners of LambdaMOO or
MediaMOO which became our unofficial home. As these discussions
continued, it was sort of as if Jason called the argonauts together on
the deck of the "Golden Fleece" each night for a little palaver. "Hey,
we're sailing in uncharted waters, fellow cybernauts. What of
interest happened to you today?"
These first-hand experiences provided fodder for some of the
most interesting and spirited discussions we had, often taking up half
each meeting's three hours. People expressed their confusion and
often anger at being kicked around, abused or tossed in swimming
pools on various MOOs. Two women "met" male-presenting
characters, and really can be said to have "dated" them. Men as well
as women struck up friendships which were occasionally darkened
by suspicions the other was not the sex they were presented to be
(and what did that matter?).
I discovered dancing in the ballroom in MediaMOO, which was
somehow more enjoyable in drag. It was so easy to slip into a slinky
negligee and camp out for the evening. This may have been the
result of some past life experiences on the stage and that I used to
study improvisation. I was somewhat surprised to learn that most of
my classmates preferred to present themselves as they were IRL,
including insisting that when dancing, I "lead."
There were as well spirited discussions concerning political
rights, free speech, and crime and punishment in cyperspace. The
discussion table divided itself, between those who viewed
cyberspace as a true last frontier, a land without boundaries (what
might be called the post-modernist approach), those who saw it as a
frontier but one in which the cattlemen and the sheep headers and
the townspeople had to band together for the sake of community and
the preservation and expansion of, if not the land exactly, what the
land stood for, and those felt that cyperspace would mirror fairly
closely both the sociology and the political ideology of real life.
After the first meeting of the class, students were encouraged,
assigned really, to haunt the microcomputer labs at Haines and
Bunche Hall or sign-on from home, and warned that there was no
substitute for hours spent on a terminal figuring out the often arcane
methods by which and through which communication is attempted in
the great electronic out there. I signed on from home for the most
part and often would find a fellow student on late at night. It was
enjoyable to use local talk to chat up what was new.
We had talked briefly about having an actual on-line class
meeting. I had attended several of the events at MediaMOO and
while they were chaotic to say the least, they were certainly out of
the ordinary assemblages. Along the way I discovered the MediaMOO
TV studio, constructed by cdr and PaulB, two faculty members from
a small college in Iowa, I believe. I had, in another life, some
background in film and video. The idea of a virtual video studio was
just too wonderful for words. I immediately decided I wanted to do
my term paper as a MediaMOO documentary. PeterK accused me of
wanting to get back into the business, and he was probably right.
The MediaMOO TV studio was complete down to the details. It
was like those incredibly elaborate doll houses you only see in
museums, presented with such conviction that they are "real," that
they irresistibly draw you in and make you regret being full-sized.
Except in the case of the MediaMOO Studio you could actually take
the doll-sized cameras and vcrs and tapes and go out and use them,
and then come back and pop some popcorn and watch America's
smallest home videos scroll by your screen. Of course, the pattern
and path of a body IRL running video equipment was duplicated in
the commands one had to issue to use the equipment, lending
absolute conviction. My hat is off to cdr and PaulB for creating the
best toy/tool ever.
Eventually I relaxed my expectations about cobbling together a
full-length documentary in favor of staging and "shooting" a virtual
seminar as the last meeting of the class. I'm glad I did because it
turned out to be a thoroughly enjoyable experience.
The class gathered in one computer lab on campus. The
transcript of that meeting follows, after which I add a brief note
about the experience.
A Brief Note Regrding Peter Kollock
Peter Kollock holds the Ph.D. in Sociology from the University of
Washington (1990) in Washington state, and the MA and BA from
Washington as well. His Ph.D. dissertation was on "The Evolution of
Cooperation," and involved computer simulations and experiments
designed to study how cooperation emerges among groups. This work
looked at the effects of imperfect information, and studied the
usefulness of different accounting systems used to keep track of
exchanges in an on-going relationship.
His background interests include perspectives in social
construction and social exchange theory. His current research
revolves around issues of co-operation in social groups, i.e. trust,
commitment, social order and deviance.
Kollock is currently preparing, with seminar member and
sociology graduate student Marc Smith, a major work on the
Sociology of Cyberspace for Sage (forthcoming: 1995). This work will
be one of the first major investigations directed at comprehending
the sociology of computer worlds.
Kollock is probably unique in being one of the few residents of
the Pacific Northwest to actually travel to, much less settle in,
Southern California. He accepted an invitation to join the faculty at
UCLA convinced that the department represented a "diverse and
impressive set of colleagues. This is the most exciting sociology
department in the country right now."
Kollock recounts that his interest in computers began in the
"dinosaur" days of the early 1980's. "I was the first in my
department to have a computer, including the faculty and was
frequently pressed into service helping them get set up. "When
graduate school began in earnest, Kollock says he "hung up my
modem." But he kept an interest in topics of social exchange,
interaction and dramaturgy as these themes were elaborated on the
nets.
The seminar in sociology came about in that Kollock had an
open slot "in which I could teach on anything I wanted to." He had
become increasingly interested in cyberspace as a result of chairing
the MA committee of graduate student Marc Smith, whose
dissertation focused on the social structure and interaction on the
WELL. Kollock then decided to offer S285K, Special Topics in
Sociology, on the Sociology of Cyberspace, probably one of the first
such seminars in the university setting.
Kollock was, and is increasingly convinced the network
environment, cyberspace, offers the sociologist an unparalleled
opportunity. Not only to observe a developing social world, but to
collect, easily store and review the traces of those observations.
AN INVITATION
You are cordially invited to attend the final spring meeting of
Sociology 285K (The Sociology of Cyberspace), originating from UCLA
in Los Angeles. The meeting will be held in MediaMOO: Autumn
Conference Room, STS Centre, on Tuesday afternoon, June 8, 3:30 to
5:00 PM PDT.
=============================================================>
Telnet address: purple-crayon.media.mit.edu 8888
>From within MediaMOO type:
out <return>
STS <return>
up <return>
Autumn <return>
Our aim is to summarize and extend our discussions in a virtual
seminar. Class members will be gathered at the Haines Hall
Microcomputer Lab on the UCLA campus. Guests will be teleporting
from a variety of remote locations. Guests will include:
Amy Bruckman (MIT)
Wade Roush (MIT)
Pavel Curtis (Xerox PARC)
Howard Rheingold (WELL)
TOPICS
The presentation of self in cyberspace
Exchange and personal relationships in cyberspace
Order, deviance, and power in virtual communities
Designing more useful virtual communities
Politics and cyberspace
Personal reflections
BACKGROUND
The Sociology of Cyberspace, a seminar organized by Professor
Peter Kollock of the UCLA Department of Sociology, has drawn
together a diverse group of approximately 15 students. These include
both graduates and undergraduates, from fields including sociology,
biology, electrical engineering, library and information science, urban
planning, English, art, and communications.
Over the past quarter discussion has revolved around a variety
of issues related to the characteristics, opportunities and
disadvantages of human interaction via the computer in cyberspace.
Topics have included: order and deviance, identity and anonymity,
democracy and collective action, representation of gender, race, class,
space and meaning in cyberspace, and politics and privacy.
A copy of the class syllabus follows:
SOCIOLOGY 285K/197H
The Sociology of Cyberspace
Spring 1993
Instructor: Peter Kollock
TA: Marc Smith
Office: Haines 295
Phone: (310) 825-3914 (O)
(310) 455-1587 (H)
Email: kollock@soc.sscnet.ucla.edu
smithm@nicco.sscnet.ucla.edu
Office Hours: (To be announced)
READINGS: There are two required books that have been ordered for
this course: _Cyberspace: First Steps_ edited by Michael Benedickt
and, _The Whole Internet User's Guide & Catalog_ by Ed Krol.
In addition, a set of readings has been put together. Readings
are to be done prior to the week in which they are discussed.
Schedule of Weekly Topics
-------------------------
Introduction
------------
Week 1 - A Sampler of Cyberspace & Driver's Guide
Interaction
-----------
Week 2 - Who speaks to Whom, and How?
Week 3 - Frames of Interaction
Community and Collective Action
-------------------------------
Week 4 - Order and Deviance
Week 5 - Identity and Anonymity
Week 6 - Electronic Community, Democracy and Collective Action
Representation
--------------
Week 7 - Representations of Self: Gender; Class; Race
Week 8 - Representations of Space and Meaning
Politics and the Future
-----------------------
Week 9 - Power, Privacy, and Policy
Week 10 - Flaming about the Future
Reading Assignments
-------------------
Introduction
------------
Week 1 - A Sampler of Cyberspace & Driver's Guide
Benedikt, Michael. 1991. _Cyberspace: First Steps_, Cambridge,
MA: MIT Press. Introduction, pp. 1-26
Krol, Ed. 1992. _The Whole Internet User's Guide & Catalog_.
Sepastopol, CA: O'Reilly & Associates. Various.
Karraker, Rodger, "Highways of the Mind", _Whole Earth
Review_, Number 70. Pages 4-11
Wooley, Benjamin, 1992. "Virtuality", and "Cyberspace". _Virtual
Worlds: A Journey in Hype and Hyperreality_. Cambridge, MA:
Blackwell. Pages. 57-72 and 121-136.
Interaction
-----------
Week 2 - Who speaks to Whom, and How?
Goffman, Erving. 1959. _Presentation of Self in Everyday Life_,
New York: Anchor. Pages 1-16.
Reid, Elizabeth. 1991. "Electropolis: Communication and
Community on Internet Relay Chat". Electronic manuscript. (FTP:
ftp.eff.org) Pages 1-33.
Sproull, Lee and Sara Keisler, 1992. _Connections: New Ways of
Working in the Networked Organization_. Cambridge, MA: MIT Press.
Pages 37-78
Week 3 - Frames of Interaction
Serpentelli, Jill, 1992. "Conversational Structure and Personality
Correlates of Electronic Communication". Electronic manuscript. (FTP:
parcftp.xerox.com) Pages 1-end.
Curtis, Pavel. 1991. "Mudding: Social Phenomena in Text-Based
Virtual Reality", Electronic manuscript. (FTP: parcftp.xerox.com)
Pages 1-21.
Rheingold, Howard. 1992. "A Slice of Life in My Virtual
Community". Electronic manuscript. (FTP: ftp.eff.org) Pages 1-14.
Technical and Social Notes on the Use of Usenet:
A_Primer_on_How_to_Work_With_the_Usenet_Community
Answers_to_Frequently_Asked_Questions_about_Usenet
Emily_Postnews_Answers_Your_Questions_on_Netiquette
Rules_for_posting_to_Usenet
USENET_Software:_History_and_Sources
What_is_Usenet?
(To be found in your class account)
MUD Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) File
(To be found in your class account)
Community and Collective Action
-------------------------------
Week 4 - Order and Deviance
Orbell, John, and Robyn Dawes. 1981. "Social Dilemmas." in
_Progress in Applied Social Psychology (Vol.1)_, edited by G.M.
Stephenson and J.M. Davis. New York: Wiley and Sons. Pages 37-65.
Smith, Marc. 1992. "Voices from the Well: The Logic of the
Virtual Commons". Electronic manuscript. (FTP: nicco.sscnet.ucla.edu)
Pages 1-58.
Morningstar, Chip, and F. Randall Farmer. 1991."The Lessons of
Lucasfilm's Habitat", in _Cyberspace: First Steps_, edited by Michael
Benedikt, Cambridge, MA: MIT Press. Pages 273-302.
Deviance and Sanctions in Virtual Spaces (To be found in your
class directory.)
Week 5 - Identity and Anonymity: A Case Study
Debate and Discussion on Anonymity and Accountability
anon.penet.fi.goes.down!
anon.rebutal
anonymity.eff
anonymous.posting
news.admin.policy
A_Cypherpunk's_Manifesto
From_Crossbows_to_Cryptography
The_Crypto_Anarchist_Manifesto
(To be found in your class directory)
Week 6 - Electronic Community, Democracy, and Collective Action
Rheingold, Howard, et al. 1991. "Electronic Democracy", _Whole
Earth Review, No. 71. Pages 4-42.
McCullough, Michael F. 1991."Democratic Questions for the
Computer Age", in _Computers in Human Services_, Vol. 8. Pages 9-
18.
Varley, Pamela. 1991 "Electronic Democracy". _Technology
Review_, November/December 1991. Pages 43-51.
Representation
--------------
Week 7 - Representations of Self: Gender; Class; Race
Van Gelder, Lindsy, 1991. "The Strange Case of the Electronic
Lover". _In Computerization and Controversy: Value Conflicts and
Social Choices_, edited by Charles Dunlop and Rob Kling. Pages 364-
375.
Stone, Allucquere Rosanne, 1991. "Will the Real Body Please
Stand Up?: Boundary Stories about Virtual Cultures". In
_Cyberspace: First Steps_, edited by Michael Benedikt, Cambridge,
MA: MIT Press. Pages 81-118.
Haraway, Donna, 1991. "A Cyborg Manifesto: Science,
Technology, and Socialist-Feminism in the Late Twentieth Century".
In _Simians, Cyborgs, and Women_, New York: Routledge. Pages 149-
182.
Darnovsky, Marcy, 1992. "Overhauling the Meaning Machines:
An Interview with Donna Haraway", Socialist Review. Pages 65-84.
Week 8 - Representations of Space and Meaning
Reveaux, Tony. 1993. "Virtual Reality Gets Real". _NewMedia_,
Vol. 3. Pages 32-41.
Robins, Kevin, 1992. "The Virtual Unconscious in Post-
Photography", in _Science as Culture_. Pages 99-115.
Poster, Mark. 1990. "Derrida and Electronic Writing: The
Subject of the Computer". _In The Mode of Information:
Poststructuralism and Social Context_. Chicago: University of Chicago
Press. Pages 99-128.
> >
Harvey, David, 1989. "The Experience of Space and Time:
Introduction", "Individual Spaces and Times in Social Life", "Time and
Space as Sources of Social Power". In _The Condition of
Postmodernity_, Cambridge, MA: Basil Blackwell. Pages 201-239.
Politics and the Future
-----------------------
Week 9 - Power, Privacy, and Policy
Robins, Kevin and Frank Webster. 1990. "Athens without
Slaves... Or Slaves without Athens?: The Neurosis of Technology".
_Science as Culture_. Pages 7-53.
Barlow, John Perry, 1990. "Crime and Puzzlement", Electronic
manuscript. (FTP: ftp.eff.org) Pages 1-24.
Barlow, John Perry, 1990. "Electronic Frontier Foundation",
Electronic manuscript. (FTP: ftp.eff.org) Pages 1-4.
Ross, Andrew. 1991. "Hacking Away at the Counterculture". In
_Strange Weather: Culture, Science and Technology in the Age of
Limits_. New York: Verso. Pages 75-100.
Ê
Poster, Mark. 1990. "Foucault and Databases: Participatory
Surveillance". _In The Mode of Information: Poststructuralism and
Social Context_. Chicago: University of Chicago Press. Pages 69-98.
Clinton, Bill. 1993. "Address to the Employees of Silicon
Graphics, Inc." Electronic manuscript. (Available from Clinton-news-
Distribution@MIT.EDU) Pages 1-10.
Week 10 - Flaming about the Future
Gibson, William. 1984. Neuromancer. New York: Ace. All.
(Other readings to be decided.)
A Note Regarding the Transcript, and the
Conventions of MediaMOO
The following transcript was recorded using a MediaMOO TV
camera, in real time. The tapes were then played back using
MediaMOO TV editing machinery and their content captured to
screen buffer and then downloaded to a Mac IICX for editing.
Camera, tapes, editing equipment exist as programmed objects in
MediaMOO
No other corrections, additions, or deletions have been made
from the transcript.
The following is a typical dialog entry, or "speech act":
[on monitor <11, 9 secs>] Guest says, "I think I am beig ignored"
"Monitor" refers to the fact that the tape was played back on a
MediaMOO TV edit monitor. The first number, 11 in this instance,
refers to the "speech act." Each act or event entered into the flow of
the meeting, triggered either by one of the participants or the
camera operator, is designed by a number. Four tapes were used in
recording this seminar. The first holds speech acts or entries 1-1000.
When tapes are changed, the counter is automatically reset to 1.
Therefore, entry 1 on tape 2 is or might be designed more accurately
1001.
The timing following the counter number, 9 sec. in this case,
refers to the elapsed time, real time, since the previous entry. This
time indicates exactly the duration or pause one witnessed sitting at
a terminal and viewing the seminar as it happened.
A note about MediaMOO conventions. Participants or players
may join MediaMOO by sending a request to the MOO giving their
email address and specifying their research interest (MediaMOO is
directed to the study of computer communication and virtual space).
Traditionally, participants them adopt a pseudonym of whatever sort
they desire. This can be their real name, provided it is not already
used by another player, or any fanciful name of their choosing. It
should be noted that players are not totally anonymous as they are
on other MOOs. Any player may at any time perform the @whois
command and receive via the computer the real name of the
character.
The following students in Sociology S285K were registered at
MediaMOO and can be identified in the transcript by their player
name, at left:
Andre: Marc Smith
Bushi: Lorraine Wallis
destae19: Eric Rivera
Dorothy: Irene Charny
Elizabeth: Elizabeth Guterriez
Person: Eric Magnuson
PeterK: Peter Kollock
Ralph124c41: Bruce Henstell
Rez: Chris Long
Those appearing as "guests" were, for the most part the non-
registered members of the seminar. Other characters are various
MOO players from elsewhere who happened by.
Players in MediaMOO may "talk" or communicate in two ways.
First, by typing " (quotation marks) and then a line of text,
concluding with a carriage return. The computer takes this text and
displays it with the character's name. So, for example, if I were at a
terminal and typed:
"Hi! What's new!?
The computer would output to the screens of all players online
at that moment the following:
Ralph124c41 says "Hi! What's new!?"
The second way of communicating is through the emote
command. A player make an expression by typing a ":" (colon) and
then a line describing a mood, action or reaction. For example, if I
were to type on my terminal:
: waves and smiles furiously.
The computer would output:
Ralph124c41 waves and smiles furiously.
Finally, the operation of the MediaMOO camera produces three
entries on the transcript record. First, when the camera operator
moves the camera, that action is described:
the camera pans left to right over Autumn Conference Room . .
The pan of the camera will be followed by a description of the
immediate setting. That setting is entered into the computer memory
for that specific location and can be accessed by any player at any
time via the look command.
When the camera zooms in on a player, that is recorded as
follows:
. . .the camera zooms in on cdr. . .
That will be followed by a description of the player as entered
by the player into the file for his character:
[on monitor <76, 1 secs>] You see an avid MOO programmer
and Cognitive Science type guy. Currently developing the
mediaMOO TV station.
A final note on the mechanism of the Autumn Conference
Room. The computer monitors the players present in the conference
room, and only allows a set number to actually "talk" or "emote" at
any one time. The number of speakers who can talk is set by the
moderator, and it will be noticed that the number changed from time
to time to control the flow of conversation.
Players who wish to speak type "request" on their terminals. If
the floor is open, the computer informs them they may proceed. The
"have the floor" and may speak until they type "yield." If the set
number of speakers has been reached, then the computer informs
the requesting player that he/she has been entered into a queue.
When sufficient speakers have yielded, the computer then informs
the character he/she has the floor.
Tuesday, June 8, 1993 3:20 pm PDT (10:20 hours GMT)
[on monitor <1, 739579621 secs>] pause
[on monitor <2, 9 secs>] Plaid_Guest materializes out of thin air.
[on monitor <3, 1 secs>] Ralph124c41 says, "ok, we're recording...."
[on monitor <4, 0 secs>] Albert smiles for the camera.
[on monitor <5, 5 secs>] Person says, "Hi Mom."
[on monitor <6, 2 secs>] Guest jump in the air and try to get
attention
[on monitor <7, 4 secs>] Bushi fixes her hair so that she looks nice
[on monitor <8, 3 secs>] Guest says, "ME ME!!"
[on monitor <9, 4 secs>] destae19 says, "person seems to be having
quite a good time"
[on monitor <10, 12 secs>] Person says, "Number 1!"
[on monitor <11, 9 secs>] Guest says, "I think I am beig ignored"
[on monitor <12, 3 secs>] Rez tries to calm Person down, but fails
miserably
[on monitor <13, 1 secs>] . . . the camera pans left to right over
Autumn Conference Room . . .
[on monitor <14, 0 secs>] A mellow, comfortable room with lots of
sofas and couches. Outside, the trees along Memorial Drive are a
luminous golden color, and whitecaps are showing on the windswept
Charles River Basin. The faint odour of burning leaves drifts in
through an open window.
[on monitor <15, 1 secs>]
[on monitor <16, 1 secs>] Protagoras returns, mission accomplished.
[on monitor <17, 1 secs>] Bushi pats Guest on the back
[on monitor <18, 3 secs>] Person [to destae19]: Can it, pal.
[on monitor <19, 19 secs>] Pisthetairos says, "Hi guest"
[on monitor <20, 0 secs>] Azure_Guest disappears suddenly for parts
unknown.
[on monitor <21, 1 secs>] Guest says, "does anyone want"hi"
[on monitor <22, 0 secs>] . . .the camera zooms in on PeterK. . .
[on monitor <23, 3 secs>] You see a player who should type
'@describe me as ...'.
[on monitor <24, 1 secs>] Rez says, "Is everyone here? Shall we do
introductions?"
[on monitor <25, 9 secs>] Guest says, "hi"
[on monitor <26, 8 secs>] Ralph124c41 says, "yo peter wave..."
[on monitor <27, 1 secs>] Bushi says, "lets do introductions!"
[on monitor <28, 2 secs>] Guest says, "yes, let's do intros"
[on monitor <29, 0 secs>] . . .the camera zooms in on Andre. . .
[on monitor <30, 7 secs>] A tall thin bearded man with longish
brown hair with hints of red. He is dressed like a
moderator.
[on monitor <31, 0 secs>] Maximum number of speakers set to 6
[on monitor <32, 10 secs>] Guest says, "HI, ME ME!!"
[on monitor <33, 1 secs>] Andre says, "Hello everyone, shall we
start?"
[on monitor <34, 0 secs>] . . .the camera zooms in on Guest. . .
[on monitor <35, 2 secs>] {list}
[on monitor <36, 5 secs>] Pisthetairos [to all]: "you can call me pisth
for short
[on monitor <37, 1 secs>] Guest says, "Do you have any riske' tapes?"
[on monitor <38, 0 secs>] Bushi says, "yse lets start"
[on monitor <39, 2 secs>] Person thinks Guest is going to get
chastized soon.
[on monitor <40, 3 secs>] PeterK smiles
[on monitor <41, 6 secs>] Maximum number of speakers set to 18
[on monitor <42, 9 secs>] PeterK says, "Yes, lets start..""
[on monitor <43, 0 secs>] . . . the camera pans left to right over
Autumn Conference Room . . .
[on monitor <44, 0 secs>] A mellow, comfortable room with lots of
sofas and couches. Outside, the trees along Memorial Drive are a
luminous golden color, and whitecaps are showing on the windswept
Charles River Basin. The faint odour of burning leaves drifts in
through an open window.
[on monitor <45, 0 secs>]
[on monitor <46, 11 secs>] Person says, "Hey, I did."
[on monitor <47, 5 secs>] Pavel materializes out of thin air.
[on monitor <48, 5 secs>] Andre says, "Ok, to start I have opened the
floor widely."
[on monitor <49, 11 secs>] Scamper says, "oooo"
[on monitor <50, 2 secs>] Person thinks he better start behaving
himself.
[on monitor <51, 37 secs>] Andre says, "I'm going to drop it down to
a more cozy 6 speakers in a minute."
[on monitor <52, 1 secs>] Guest says, "what does limiting speakers
do?"
[on monitor <53, 1 secs>] PeterK [to Pavel]: Thanks for coming by
[on monitor <54, 1 secs>] Andre says, "Would everyone like to do a
cycle or requests and yeilds?"
[on monitor <55, 7 secs>] Ralph124c41 says, "are we ready to start?"
[on monitor <56, 4 secs>] Guest says, "yes"
[on monitor <57, 6 secs>] Andre says, "I'm told that we need to do
that."
[on monitor <58, 3 secs>] Guest says, "oh"
[on monitor <59, 6 secs>] Jay materializes out of thin air.
[on monitor <60, 0 secs>] Protagoras says, "I vote for requests &
yields"
[on monitor <61, 9 secs>] Ralph124c41 says, "COULD EVERYBODY
STOP TALKING FOR A SEC PLEASE"
[on monitor <62, 9 secs>] Andre says, "So, if everyone will do a req"
[on monitor <63, 1 secs>] Bushi says, "how do you do a request"
[on monitor <64, 1 secs>] Andre says, "And then a yeild."
[on monitor <65, 4 secs>] Guest says, "I keep getting a nice try..."
[on monitor <66, 0 secs>] cdr has arrived.
[on monitor <67, 2 secs>] Scamper says, "what's with the shouting?"
[on monitor <68, 5 secs>] Elizabeth says, "Hi everyone."
[on monitor <69, 6 secs>] Ralph124c41 says, "just want to astart the
taping"
[on monitor <70, 2 secs>] cdr drops MMTV Camera.
[on monitor <71, 13 secs>] PeterK [to cdr]: Hello!
[on monitor <72, 1 secs>] Ralph124c41 says, "hey cdr you made it!"
[on monitor <73, 2 secs>] Andre [to Ralph124c41]: I suggest you go
ahead!
[on monitor <74, 4 secs>] Guest says, "i type req, and get nice try but
other people want to speak too"
[on monitor <75, 0 secs>] . . .the camera zooms in on cdr. . .
[on monitor <76, 1 secs>] You see an avid MOO programmer and
Cognitive Science type guy. Currently developing the mediaMOO TV
station.
[on monitor <77, 7 secs>] Guest says, "what means?"
[on monitor <78, 7 secs>] Scamper says, "maybe that's a hint!"
[on monitor <79, 4 secs>] Andre [to Guest]: That means that there is
more than 18 people in here.
[on monitor <80, 9 secs>] Maximum number of speakers set to 22
[on monitor <81, 0 secs>] Albert [to Guest]: you are already a
speaker.
[on monitor <82, 0 secs>] cdr unlocks the MMTV Camera.
[on monitor <83, 5 secs>] Andre [to Guest]: try that again
[on monitor <84, 1 secs>] Guest says, "oh"
[on monitor <85, 0 secs>] cdr turns on the MMTV Camera.
[on monitor <86, 3 secs>] AIIIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!! FEEDBACK LOOP!
TURN OFF TV!
[on monitor <87, 0 secs>] Protagoras 22 speakers=chaos
[on monitor <88, 8 secs>] AIIIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!! FEEDBACK LOOP!
TURN OFF TV!
[on monitor <89, 0 secs>] Guest says, "OOO TRIP OUT!!!"
[on monitor <90, 2 secs>] AIIIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!! FEEDBACK LOOP!
TURN OFF TV!
[on monitor <91, 0 secs>] cdr turns off MMTV Camera.
[on monitor <92, 6 secs>] AIIIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!! FEEDBACK LOOP!
TURN OFF TV!
[on monitor <93, 10 secs>] Guest says, "CRAZY MAN"
[on monitor <94, 3 secs>] Andre
[on monitor <95, 2 secs>] Person plugs his ears.
[on monitor <96, 0 secs>] Andre rubs his ears
[on monitor <97, 6 secs>] Ralph124c41 winces
[on monitor <98, 4 secs>] Guest smile
[on monitor <99, 0 secs>] Scamper says, "finally, some music"
[on monitor <100, 3 secs>] Bushi groves to the new sound
list1 101-200
I don't understand that.
Try this instead: list1 101-200 to
list1 101 to 200
Ralph124c41 lists a section of rtape1000.
[on monitor <101, 2 secs>] Protagoras goes with it.
[on monitor <102, 1 secs>] Person is lucky he brught his earplugs.
[on monitor <103, 8 secs>] Maximum number of speakers set to 6
[on monitor <104, 1 secs>] cdr turns off RalphTV.
[on monitor <105, 7 secs>] Guest let's play disco songs
[on monitor <106, 4 secs>] Andre clears throat
[on monitor <107, 0 secs>] Menachem materializes out of thin air.
[on monitor <108, 1 secs>] Protagoras registers distatste
[on monitor <109, 1 secs>] cdr turns on the MMTV Camera.
[on monitor <110, 5 secs>] Andre looks around room
[on monitor <111, 17 secs>] Andre smiles
[on monitor <112, 1 secs>] cdr goes out.
[on monitor <113, 2 secs>] Andre says, "Welcome, everyone, to the
final meeting of s285k"
[on monitor <114, 18 secs>] Guest does flips
[on monitor <115, 0 secs>] Andre says, "For those of you outside of
UCLA, that's the "Sociology of Cyberspace""
[on monitor <116, 1 secs>] Bushi claps and whistles
[on monitor <117, 2 secs>] Person acts solemn.
[on monitor <118, 0 secs>] . . .the camera zooms in on Andre. . .
[on monitor <119, 12 secs>] A tall thin bearded man with longish
brown hair with hints of red. He is dressed like a
moderator.
[on monitor <120, 7 secs>] Guest jumps in front of andre
[on monitor <121, 7 secs>] Ralph124c41 thinks person is never
solumn
[on monitor <122, 12 secs>] Andre says, "We have a number of
people with us today who are special additions to our class"
[on monitor <123, 3 secs>] cdr has arrived.
[on monitor <124, 2 secs>] Andre says, "Here through the magic of
virtual interaction."
[on monitor <125, 2 secs>] Scamper says, "we always have "special
additions"
[on monitor <126, 0 secs>] Guest says, "let's listen to andre, shut up
all"
[on monitor <127, 3 secs>] Person thinks the serious, academic
atmosphere is being somewhat disrupted.
[on monitor <128, 6 secs>] Ralph124c41 says, "hey, do i get to do my
start?"
[on monitor <129, 6 secs>] Guest says, "SHUT UP"
[on monitor <130, 1 secs>] cdr picks up RalphTV.
[on monitor <131, 3 secs>] Guest says, "andre..."
[on monitor <132, 1 secs>] cdr goes out.
[on monitor <133, 8 secs>] Andre says, "I would like to start with a
few words from Ralph, our camnera person"
[on monitor <134, 11 secs>] Andre says, "And the organizer of this
event."
[on monitor <135, 6 secs>] Scamper says, "drumroll please"
[on monitor <136, 5 secs>] Guest says, "don't yield me"
[on monitor <137, 8 secs>] Guest says, "RUN!"
[on monitor <138, 7 secs>] Jave materializes out of thin air.
[on monitor <139, 4 secs>] Guest says, "ok"
[on monitor <140, 9 secs>] Person says, "Yield, dogs!"
[on monitor <141, 7 secs>] Ralph124c41 says, "somebody tell the
consultant to go home so we can drink"
[on monitor <142, 1 secs>] Maximum number of speakers set to 3
[on monitor <143, 4 secs>] Scamper says, "is there a bumrush
command?"
[on monitor <144, 13 secs>] destae19 says, "i concur"
[on monitor <145, 0 secs>] Person says, "Yield to the power!"
[on monitor <146, 16 secs>] Ralph124c41 says, "its hot in here"
[on monitor <147, 4 secs>] Person says, "Test 123"
[on monitor <148, 2 secs>] Guest says, "hi, lets get started"
[on monitor <149, 9 secs>] destae19 says, "hello"
[on monitor <150, 3 secs>] Ralph124c41 says, "hey, i got a great idea.
since we're all in calif let's take off our clothes!"
[on monitor <151, 7 secs>] destae19 says, "oh well andre"
[on monitor <152, 1 secs>] Maximum number of speakers set to 1
[on monitor <153, 11 secs>] destae19 says, "fascist"
[on monitor <154, 9 secs>] Scamper says, "i'm not into the nudist
thing"
[on monitor <155, 1 secs>] Ralph124c41 sticks out his tongue
[on monitor <156, 1 secs>] Andre says, "I'm waiting for a yield "
[on monitor <157, 21 secs>] Guest says, "EVERYONE!"
[on monitor <158, 41 secs>] Ralph124c41 says, "i'm going to do my
start up and then yield"
[on monitor <159, 5 secs>] Andre says, "Ok, thank you all."
[on monitor <160, 2 secs>] Ralph124c41 says, "okay we're ready to
roll"
[on monitor <161, 2 secs>] Andre says, "We're ready to go now."
[on monitor <162, 0 secs>] . . . the camera pans left to right over
Autumn Conference Room . . .
[on monitor <163, 0 secs>] A mellow, comfortable room with lots
of sofas and couches. Outside, the trees along Memorial Drive are a
luminous golden color, and whitecaps are showing on the windswept
Charles River Basin. The faint odour of burning leaves drifts in
through an open window.
[on monitor <164, 20 secs>]
[on monitor <165, 0 secs>] Andre says, "I'd like to introduce
Ralph124c41"
[on monitor <166, 54 secs>] Ralph124c41 says, "test, test. okay?"
[on monitor <167, 8 secs>] Menachem disappears suddenly for parts
unknown.
[on monitor <168, 2 secs>] Guilt materializes out of thin air.
[on monitor <169, 2 secs>] Ralph124c41 says, "Good afternoon. Or
good eveneing depending on where in cyberspace you are. My name
is Ralph124c41 and I'm your correspondent from MediaMOO TV for
this seminar. This class is the last on the quarter in sociology 285k at
ucla"
[on monitor <170, 6 secs>] Locke materializes out of thin air.
[on monitor <171, 25 secs>] Azure_Guest materializes out of thin air.
[on monitor <172, 16 secs>] Ralph124c41 says, "join us now for a
seminar from, and about, cyperspace. I'm now going to"
[on monitor <173, 6 secs>] Jay has disconnected.
[on monitor <174, 5 secs>] Ralph124c41 says, "turn it over to your
moderator, the well-known Well scholar, Marc Smith...."
[on monitor <175, 8 secs>] Ralph124c41 says, "Marc.....?"
[on monitor <176, 2 secs>] Andre says, ":stands up"
[on monitor <177, 2 secs>] Andre smiles
[on monitor <178, 2 secs>] Andre says, "Hello folks."
[on monitor <179, 0 secs>] . . .the camera zooms in on Andre. . .
[on monitor <180, 19 secs>] A tall thin bearded man with longish
brown hair with hints of red. He is dressed like a
moderator.
[on monitor <181, 9 secs>] Andre says, "We're still trying to get the
hang of the interface here, so please be patient."
[on monitor <182, 28 secs>] Andre says, "I'm sure we'll figure it all
out."
[on monitor <183, 1 secs>] Andre says, "The first thing I'd like to do
is invite our guests to introduce themselves and say a few words"
[on monitor <184, 0 secs>] . . .the camera zooms in on Bushi. . .
[on monitor <185, 13 secs>] You see a player who should type
'@describe me as ...'.
[on monitor <186, 10 secs>] Andre says, "About their work."
[on monitor <187, 14 secs>] Maximum number of speakers set to 3
[on monitor <188, 6 secs>] Andre says, "If anyone has a comment to
add, type req"
[on monitor <189, 21 secs>] Andre says, "to "request" a spot"
[on monitor <190, 22 secs>] Andre says, "You may also continue to
use "whisper" to speak one-on-one with anyone else in the room."
[on monitor <191, 27 secs>] Andre says, "After you have said your
piece, please remember to use "yield" to leave room for others."
[on monitor <192, 8 secs>] Andre says, "First, I'd like to turn to the
Founder of MediaMoo, Amy Bruckman."
[on monitor <193, 0 secs>] . . .the camera zooms in on Amy. . .
[on monitor <194, 3 secs>] Amy is 5'8 with shoulder-length wavy
brown hair, and mischievous grin which seems to say "Can you
believe I get paid to do this?"
[on monitor <195, 15 secs>] Andre says, "I had the pleasure of
meeting Amy IRL a few weeks ago"
[on monitor <196, 12 secs>] Andre says, "And was very impressed
with her and the work she is doing."
[on monitor <197, 25 secs>] Andre says, "Amy?"
[on monitor <198, 21 secs>] Amy says, "Welcome to MediaMOO!"
[on monitor <199, 13 secs>] Amy says, "I'm a graduate student at
the Media Lab at MIT"
[on monitor <200, 4 secs>] cdr materializes out of thin air.
list1 201 to 300
Ralph124c41 lists a section of rtape1000.
[on monitor <201, 4 secs>] Amy says, "and for my dissertation
research I'm working on a MUD for kids"
[on monitor <202, 15 secs>] The housekeeper arrives to cart Jay off
to bed.
[on monitor <203, 9 secs>] Amy says, "to provide an authentic
context for reading, writing, and programming"
[on monitor <204, 20 secs>] Locke has disconnected.
[on monitor <205, 13 secs>] Amy says, "and I'd like to test the
hypothesis that this technology can help girls to be more comfortable
with computers"
[on monitor <206, 9 secs>] Andre smiles
[on monitor <207, 44 secs>] Amy says, "I started MediaMOO this fall
almost as a warm up project"
[on monitor <208, 8 secs>] Bacall materializes out of thin air.
[on monitor <209, 9 secs>] Amy says, "I figured if I could do this
with adults, then working with kids would be the next step"
[on monitor <210, 1 secs>] Amy says, "but MediaMOO has become
interesting in its own right"
[on monitor <211, 1 secs>] Andre says, "I am sure that there will be
a lot of questions for you today"
[on monitor <212, 22 secs>] Guilt disappears suddenly for parts
unknown.
[on monitor <213, 16 secs>] Amy says, "I'm particularly interested in
the application of contstructionist principles-- learning by doing"
[on monitor <214, 8 secs>] Amy says, "it's important to me that
everyone on MediaMOO has the right to extend the virtual world"
[on monitor <215, 13 secs>] Andre says, "This MOO, of course, is
based on a program written by another one of our guests"
[on monitor <216, 11 secs>] Amy sits down
[on monitor <217, 13 secs>] Andre says, "The MOO programming
language was written by Pavel Curtis."
[on monitor <218, 8 secs>] Pavel has been busily typing: "My name
is Pavel Curtis in RL, or Haakon or Lambda on LambdaMOO. I am a
computer science researcher at the Xerox Palo Alto Research Center
and the primary author of the LambdaMOO server code. I study the
implementation, applications, and implications of what we call `social
virtual realities', of which MUDs are one example. Most recently, I've
been doing research on the application of MUD-like systems (aka
Social Virtual Realities) to non-recreational settings, including
building Astro-VR, an enhanced MUD for use entirely by the
professional astronomy community, and Jupiter, a MUD with live
audio and video for use entirely within my research center."
[on monitor <219, 22 secs>] Pavel sits down.
[on monitor <220, 28 secs>] Rez has disconnected.
[on monitor <221, 6 secs>] cdr bops on out. . .
[on monitor <222, 5 secs>] Andre nods
[on monitor <223, 4 secs>] Andre and finishes reading
[on monitor <224, 7 secs>] Andre says, "Thanks Pavel."
[on monitor <225, 0 secs>] . . . the camera pans left to right over
Autumn Conference Room . . .
[on monitor <226, 0 secs>] A mellow, comfortable room with lots
of sofas and couches. Outside, the trees along Memorial Drive are a
luminous golden color, and whitecaps are showing on the windswept
Charles River Basin. The faint odour of burning leaves drifts in
through an open window.
[on monitor <227, 4 secs>]
[on monitor <228, 3 secs>] Andre says, "We could all learn a bit
about MOO use from Pavel."
[on monitor <229, 7 secs>] Andre smiles
[on monitor <230, 0 secs>] . . .the camera zooms in on Pavel. . .
[on monitor <231, 0 secs>] A fuddlebrained little fellow who's glad
his wife and friends are so tolerant.
[on monitor <232, 8 secs>] Wade is a graduate student in the
Program in Science, Technology, and Society at MIT. He's in the
middle of writing a dissertation on the social and political meaning of
technological disasters.
[on monitor <233, 5 secs>] Andre says, "I belive we also have Wade
Roush with us."
[on monitor <234, 0 secs>] . . .the camera zooms in on Wade. . .
[on monitor <235, 5 secs>] A tall, amiable-looking fellow in his mid-
twenties, with black hair and eyes so dark-brown you can hardly see
his pupils. An aura of guilt hangs about him because he should be
working on his PhD thesis instead of goofing around here.
[on monitor <236, 6 secs>] The housekeeper arrives to cart Locke off
to bed.
[on monitor <237, 8 secs>] Andre says, "Wade is the architect of the
building we are currently in, the STS center"
[on monitor <238, 0 secs>] Rez has connected.
[on monitor <239, 3 secs>] Andre turns to Wade
[on monitor <240, 24 secs>] Wade says, "I got interested in MUDs
when I met Amy. She was taking an STS course, and we got to
talking about her work..."
[on monitor <241, 6 secs>] Bacall goes out.
[on monitor <242, 8 secs>] Wade says, "Early this year it occurred to
me that the idea behind MediaMOO, to use MUDs to enhance
professional work..."
[on monitor <243, 7 secs>] Andre says, "Wade could you define STS
for us?"
[on monitor <244, 12 secs>] Wade says, "might also be worth testing
among humanities scholars."
[on monitor <245, 8 secs>] Wade says, "STS has two meanings!"
[on monitor <246, 12 secs>] Wade says, "In the case of this building,
it means Science and Technology Studies."
[on monitor <247, 17 secs>] Wade says, "In the case of my graduate
program, it's Science, Technology, and Society."
[on monitor <248, 3 secs>] Andre says, ""I see."
[on monitor <249, 21 secs>] Wade says, "I'm quite pleased with the
way things have been going here at the Virtual STS Centre so far."
[on monitor <250, 12 secs>] Wade says, "We've attracted lots of
folks to MediaMOO who might never have gotten involved in
cyberspace otherwise."
[on monitor <251, 28 secs>] Andre says, "You have hosted a number
of events?"
[on monitor <252, 12 secs>] Wade says, "Yes, we had a big opening
celebration, and have since had forums on the place of cyberspace in
the humanities and similar topics..."
[on monitor <253, 18 secs>] Wade says, "There is also a regular
virtual journal club."
[on monitor <254, 1 secs>] Wade says, "And folks from STS fields are
invited to build their own offices in this building."
[on monitor <255, 11 secs>] Maximum number of speakers set to 4
[on monitor <256, 2 secs>] Guest says, "hi wade, nice to meet you"
[on monitor <257, 6 secs>] Wade's finished speaking, he guesses.
[on monitor <258, 9 secs>] Guest says, "question?"
[on monitor <259, 1 secs>] Wade says, "Ask away?"
[on monitor <260, 4 secs>] Andre says, "Go ahead guest"
[on monitor <261, 5 secs>] Mephisto materializes out of thin air.
[on monitor <262, 11 secs>] Guest says, ""what type of"
[on monitor <263, 13 secs>] Guest says, "hi, my name is Fal Sarkear,
in Urban Planning at UCLA"
[on monitor <264, 1 secs>] Wade says, "Glad to meet you."
[on monitor <265, 0 secs>] . . .the camera zooms in on Guest. . .
[on monitor <266, 1 secs>] {list}
[on monitor <267, 22 secs>] Guest says, "I am interest in science,
tech, and culture in PLanning processes"
[on monitor <268, 12 secs>] Guest says, "at STS, what type of things
do different people do? Interdisciplines?"
[on monitor <269, 14 secs>] Mephisto goes home.
[on monitor <270, 15 secs>] Wade says, "STS is composed of
historians, sociologists, and anthropologists..."
[on monitor <271, 12 secs>] tina materializes out of thin air.
[on monitor <272, 18 secs>] Wade says, "Most people here work on
topics in the history and sociology of twentieth-century science and
technology."
[on monitor <273, 2 secs>] Andre says, "speakers"
[on monitor <274, 1 secs>] Guest says, "how is Media Moo publicized
to the humanities, say..."
[on monitor <275, 14 secs>] Wade says, "Sorry to be so vague, but
the program is very interdisciplinary and people are working on a
wide range of topics."
[on monitor <276, 17 secs>] Guest says, "GReat, sounds more
interesting"
[on monitor <277, 4 secs>] Wade says, "We posted announcements
on several electronic bulletin boards used by historians and social
scientists in STS fields."
[on monitor <278, 8 secs>] PeterK says, "could I ask a question,
Wade?"
[on monitor <279, 15 secs>] Wade says, "Please do, PeterK."
[on monitor <280, 10 secs>] Protagoras says, "[to Amy] What aspects
of the MOO do you believe enhances its utility for women? Its
relational dimension?"
[on monitor <281, 17 secs>] PeterK says, "I know you've talked
about the 'if you build it they will come.." view"
[on monitor <282, 3 secs>] Wade says, "Yes?"
[on monitor <283, 27 secs>] PeterK says, "How successful has the sts
centre been up to now""
[on monitor <284, 1 secs>] Wade says, "It's a hard question to
answer...it certainly hasn't developed the way I envisioned, but that
doesn't mean it hasn't been successful..."
[on monitor <285, 17 secs>] PeterK looks to Wade and smiles
[on monitor <286, 17 secs>] Andre says, "May I pose a question?"
[on monitor <287, 9 secs>] Wade says, "I think the measure of
success will be whether the STS Centre attracts lots of interesting
folks who learn from each other, especially by building their own
virtual places and objects."
[on monitor <288, 18 secs>] Wade says, "And that is definitely
starting to happen."
[on monitor <289, 5 secs>] Andre says, "The kinds of social
organizations we have so far in virtual spaces is certainly embryonic"
[on monitor <290, 3 secs>] Wade has written a paper on this subject,
available via ftp from media.mit.edu.
[on monitor <291, 22 secs>] Andre says, "Ooops, go ahead Amy"
[on monitor <292, 10 secs>] Amy [to protagorus]: that's an
interesting question
[on monitor <293, 8 secs>] Amy says, "one that I'm still exploring"
[on monitor <294, 1 secs>] Amy says, "I believe that the key word is
context"
[on monitor <295, 18 secs>] Wade's paper is in media.mit.edu,
directory /pub/MediaMOO/Papers, filename STS-Centre.
[on monitor <296, 5 secs>] Protagoras says, "Please elaborate on
"context.""
[on monitor <297, 14 secs>] Amy says, "the socially situated nature
of reading, writing and programming may be more appealing to
women"
[on monitor <298, 1 secs>] Ralph124c41 says, "wade: what is it about
the humanities, organically, or in social context, that makes you think
its practioners would be interested in a MOO?"
[on monitor <299, 35 secs>] Amy says, "but that's a hypothesis that I
intend to test, not just assume"
[on monitor <300, 5 secs>] Amy says, "the metaphorical relationship
of the virtual and real world provides a kind of connectedness to
human concerns"
list1 301 to 400
Ralph124c41 lists a section of rtape1000.
[on monitor <301, 30 secs>] Protagoras says, "Is there a rl analogue?"
[on monitor <302, 1 secs>] Protagoras says, "I see we're on the same
wavelength (literally)"
[on monitor <303, 4 secs>] Andre says, "My understanding is that
MOOs will become the new hallway, tearoom, lounge, etc of academe"
[on monitor <304, 17 secs>] Protagoras smiles
[on monitor <305, 4 secs>] Amy smiles to protagoras
[on monitor <306, 5 secs>] Andre says, "Would that be a proper
characterizatiuon"
[on monitor <307, 8 secs>] Andre asks
[on monitor <308, 22 secs>] Ralph124c41 says, "i just want to say i
hope the eastern contingent is having as much funny boozing it up as
this local group."
[on monitor <309, 9 secs>] Guest says, "amy, what do you mean by a
metaphorical relationship?"
[on monitor <310, 15 secs>] Amy laughs. "We're clearly missing
some of the fun"
[on monitor <311, 4 secs>] Andre [to raplh]: I agree -- there will be a
number of sticky keyboards in hianes!
[on monitor <312, 11 secs>] Amy says, "well guest, for example, one
project I can imagine is to start by creating a virtual dog"
[on monitor <313, 2 secs>] Andre says, "Go on"
[on monitor <314, 22 secs>] Amy says, "which you can do just by
making something which inherits from generic dog"
[on monitor <315, 1 secs>] Plaid_Guest disappears suddenly for parts
unknown.
[on monitor <316, 18 secs>] Amy says, "in one simple command, you
have something which wags its tail when you pet it and follows you
around"
[on monitor <317, 3 secs>] Guest says, "does it have its own sense of
choice or cognition?"
[on monitor <318, 8 secs>] Maximum number of speakers set to 5
[on monitor <319, 44 secs>] Amy says, "then the child might decide
to look at the code, realize it's not hard to modify, and possibly teach
it to guard your room"
[on monitor <320, 2 secs>] The_Orb materializes out of thin air.
[on monitor <321, 3 secs>] Andre says, "I'd like to pose a question."
[on monitor <322, 15 secs>] Guest says, "what type of philosphical
questions, and names of thinkers are you looking at?"
[on monitor <323, 10 secs>] Andre says, "I was reading a book called
the "Cult of Information""
[on monitor <324, 12 secs>] Andre says, "By a fella named Rozack"
[on monitor <325, 3 secs>] Protagoras says, "Outstanding book!"
[on monitor <326, 3 secs>] Andre says, "He's very critical of
information technology"
[on monitor <327, 6 secs>] Green_Guest has arrived.
[on monitor <328, 4 secs>] Wade says, "Ralph asked what it is about
the humanities, organically, or in social context, that makes me think
its practioners would be interested in a MOO. Should I take a crack at
that one now?"
[on monitor <329, 1 secs>] Gavin materializes out of thin air.
[on monitor <330, 18 secs>] Andre says, "And especially of there use
in education."
[on monitor <331, 12 secs>] Andre [to Wade]: I think we might as
well multithread.
[on monitor <332, 9 secs>] Protagoras says, "Right, he's posed the
concept of Master Ideas and found infocult wanting."
[on monitor <333, 6 secs>] The_Orb goes home.
[on monitor <334, 14 secs>] tina disappears suddenly for parts
unknown.
[on monitor <335, 10 secs>] Andre [to Amy]: In that book he
suggests that computers do not rteach better than humans.
[on monitor <336, 2 secs>] Wade says, "I think that most humanities
folks are *not* going to get involved with MOOs unless they have a
prior interesting in computing, as indicated by whether they use e-
mail or BBS..."
[on monitor <337, 14 secs>] Andre says, "I do not necessarily agree,
but could you "
[on monitor <338, 3 secs>] Amy [to Andre]: absolutely! I do not
believe in computers as a substitue for teachers
[on monitor <339, 1 secs>] Andre says, "perhaps respond to such a
charge?"
[on monitor <340, 21 secs>] St_Francis materializes out of thin air.
[on monitor <341, 5 secs>] Amy [to Andre]: but a good teacher and a
good computer system can accomplish some amazing things together
[on monitor <342, 1 secs>] Jade_Guest materializes out of thin air.
[on monitor <343, 3 secs>] Wade says, "So we are starting with a
group that's already open to some of the informality and wierdness
that goes on in a MOO..."
[on monitor <344, 5 secs>] Amy says, "I don't believe in computer
tutoring"
[on monitor <345, 15 secs>] Amy says, "or distance learning"
[on monitor <346, 16 secs>] Wade says, "But there are still lots of
humanities people who find this whole medium disturbing, or worse,
a waste of time."
[on monitor <347, 11 secs>] Andre says, "So a MOO does not replace
a teacher"
[on monitor <348, 5 secs>] Jay materializes out of thin air.
[on monitor <349, 1 secs>] Andre says, "Just provides a new context"
[on monitor <350, 2 secs>] Amy [to Andre]: the computer is not a
substitute for anything
[on monitor <351, 15 secs>] Andre aasks
[on monitor <352, 1 secs>] Amy [to Andre]: it's a new medium of
expression
[on monitor <353, 17 secs>] Protagoras says, "The power's in the
interface, not in separate realms."
[on monitor <354, 3 secs>] Andre [to Wade]: What kinds of criticisms
of MOOs are you hearing?
[on monitor <355, 15 secs>] Amy [to Andre]: and I believe in using it
to empower people to construct personally meaningful artifacts
[on monitor <356, 8 secs>] Maximum number of speakers set to 6
[on monitor <357, 4 secs>] Amy [to Andre]: what is wonderful about
this place is that the participants built it!
[on monitor <358, 4 secs>] Andre [to Wade]: Jump in!
[on monitor <359, 21 secs>] Person [to Amy]: But if it's a new
medium of expression, why can't distance learning work,?
[on monitor <360, 3 secs>] Amy [to Person]: distance learning may
be a sad necessity in the face of real economic constraints
[on monitor <361, 10 secs>] Wade says, "People at MIT have told me
that I'm endangering my reputation as an academic by having
anything to do with virtual reality."
[on monitor <362, 7 secs>] Scamper [to Amy]: "why did you decide
on virtual dog, rather than virtual monster, virtual art, or some other
form of interactive media more interesting than dog?
[on monitor <363, 3 secs>] Wade says, "Others are just indifferent or
see this as a game...but if they are so uptight then who needs them?"
[on monitor <364, 7 secs>] Amy [to but]: the interpersonal
relationshiop betweeen student and teacher is a key part of the
learning process and should not be taken for granted
[on monitor <365, 10 secs>] Andre [to Wade]: what is the risk of
getting close to VR?
[on monitor <366, 31 secs>] Person says, "Good point, Wade."
[on monitor <367, 14 secs>] Amy [to Scamper]: that's just an
example. one that makes me happy. I'm allergic to fur and have
always wanted a dog! but what is most important is that people can
use this medium to construct what is meaningful to them!
[on monitor <368, 26 secs>] Wade [to Andre]: I think it's perceived
as vapourware, more hype than substance. Not many people yet
understand the potential of VR as an educational or professional
medium. And who can blame them, based on the way VR gets
represented on the TV news and in the movies!
[on monitor <369, 2 secs>] Andre says, "Hmm. So, there is resistance
to the technology."
[on monitor <370, 8 secs>] Person says, "Yes, I'm certainly not
suggesting a replacement of teachers!"
[on monitor <371, 14 secs>] Amy [to Wade]: to cross conversations, I
believe this medium challenges the boundaries between work and
play
[on monitor <372, 3 secs>] Scamper [to Amy]: "but it seems that the
meaning of the creators, becomes applied to the meaning of the
learner, have you thought of the repercussions of your own meaning,
and what you have put into the system?
[on monitor <373, 1 secs>] Person says, "But a complement to a
person's already occurring education experience."
[on monitor <374, 1 secs>] Andre [to amy&wade]: You both share a
very positive view of this technology
[on monitor <375, 23 secs>] Wade [to Andre]: Not 'resistance' exactly
-- I don't think it's political. It's more in the way of skepticism.
[on monitor <376, 11 secs>] Wade is optimistic, but still cautious.
[on monitor <377, 17 secs>] Andre [to Pavel]: Everyone wants to
yeild to let you in.
[on monitor <378, 6 secs>] Guest says, "I yield"
[on monitor <379, 2 secs>] Scamper [to Pavel]: "how does it feel to be
a star?
[on monitor <380, 15 secs>] Laughing_Star materializes out of thin
air.
[on monitor <381, 15 secs>] Guilt materializes out of thin air.
[on monitor <382, 4 secs>] Andre [to Pavel]: We'd like to ask you
about the developments at Xerox
[on monitor <383, 22 secs>] Beth says, "Hi, my name is Krista
Bessinger, in cultural anthropology at Smith College... and I have a
question for Wade..."
[on monitor <384, 3 secs>] Amy [to Scamper]: absolutely correct.
there is no neutral meaning. my biases are built into the system
design. I hope to build in my values-- of pluralism, for example.
and values that will encourage girls to be excited about computers.
Those are absolutely value judgements
[on monitor <385, 7 secs>] Jave goes home.
[on monitor <386, 8 secs>] Andre [to Pavel]: You are woirking
[on monitor <387, 1 secs>] St_Francis has disconnected.
[on monitor <388, 8 secs>] Beth says, "I am somewhat familiar with
the STS program at MIT and so I am also aware that Michael Fisher
was recently hired...."
[on monitor <389, 16 secs>] Andre [to Pavel]: on a wider bandwidth
versions of MOOs.
[on monitor <390, 1 secs>] Victoria materializes out of thin air.
[on monitor <391, 2 secs>] Maximum number of speakers set to 7
[on monitor <392, 6 secs>] Beth says, "As far as I know, he had not
published much (or anything?) pertaining directly to STS..."
[on monitor <393, 9 secs>] Andre [to Pavel]: try now
[on monitor <394, 8 secs>] Beth says, "And I was wondering, since he
had joined the faculty, if you have any better sense of where his
interests lie..."
[on monitor <395, 5 secs>] Pavel [to Andre]: What did you want to
know?
[on monitor <396, 22 secs>] Beth says, "and what kinds of research
he might be interested in pursuing..."
[on monitor <397, 3 secs>] Beth says, "where do you see him fitting
into the program?"
[on monitor <398, 7 secs>] Andre [to Pavel]: You are working on
Moos with much wider bandwidths - video, audio, etc.
[on monitor <399, 1 secs>] Pavel nods.
[on monitor <400, 7 secs>] Wade [to Beth]: Basically, Fischer was
interested in changing fields of study since his original subject, Iran,
is now very difficult to study...
list1 401 to 500
Ralph124c41 lists a section of rtape1000.
[on monitor <401, 27 secs>] Andre [to Pavel]: Do you see any
differences devekloping?
[on monitor <402, 8 secs>] Scamper says, "are there any artists on
the staff of Media Moo, or is it all scientists, do you think that all of
this is technology vs art, a praxis of the two, or what?"
[on monitor <403, 7 secs>] Andre [to Pavel]: Perhaps you could
describe the Jupiter Project?
[on monitor <404, 6 secs>] Ralph124c41 says, "pavel: describe the
moo you're setting up at xerox"
[on monitor <405, 7 secs>] Pavel says, "It's too early yet to say very
much about the affects of audio and video on MUDs, since we've only
done small, short experiments so far. Let me describe the model,
first..."
[on monitor <406, 2 secs>] Green_Guest has disconnected.
[on monitor <407, 15 secs>] Wade [to Beth]: ...The STS program was
looking to establish a strong base in anthropology, and Fischer will
definitely help us do that. You're right that he has no real experience
in STS fields but he has expressed an interest in getting up to speed.
[on monitor <408, 16 secs>] Wade [to Beth]: We can talk more about
this privately if you like.
[on monitor <409, 0 secs>] tina materializes out of thin air.
[on monitor <410, 3 secs>] Beth says, "thanks..."
[on monitor <411, 35 secs>] Pavel says, "In the Jupiter project, we're
building an enhanced MUD for use entirely by the people working
here at my research center."
[on monitor <412, 18 secs>] Victoria goes home.
[on monitor <413, 12 secs>] Gavin goes home.
[on monitor <414, 14 secs>] Protagoras disappears suddenly for
parts unknown.
[on monitor <415, 28 secs>] Pavel says, "The enhancements over
what we're using here on MediaMOO (or at LambdaMOO) include
window-based interfaces to MUD objects, a variety of shared
window-based tools, and live, real-time audio and video between the
participants."
[on monitor <416, 1 secs>] Amy says, "someone asked about artists
on the staff of MediaMOO. If you go to the E&L garden and type
"find art in research directory" you'll get quite a long list in response"
[on monitor <417, 6 secs>] Ralph124c41 says, "pavel: how qucikly
does this become a xerox computer game?"
[on monitor <418, 11 secs>] The housekeeper arrives to cart
St_Francis off to bed.
[on monitor <419, 37 secs>] Pavel says, "For example, for the audio,
when you walk into a virtual room and speak (out loud, really), the
other participants in the same room hear you and you hear them."
[on monitor <420, 5 secs>] Amy says, "but I should emphasize that
the staff are called janitors because we try to stay in the background;
all those artists are members, not 'staff'"
[on monitor <421, 30 secs>] Pavel [to Ralph124c41]: I haven't seen
much evidence so far of it being treated as a game at all; much more
as a new and fruitful medium of casual communication.
[on monitor <422, 2 secs>] Ralph124c41 thinks hmmmmmmm
[on monitor <423, 15 secs>] Andre [to Pavel]: How has the staff at
your campus taken to it?
[on monitor <424, 2 secs>] Andre says, "In a recent article about
Bellcore (The ATT research lab)"
[on monitor <425, 23 secs>] Pavel blinks at the word `campus' and
goes on...
[on monitor <426, 6 secs>] Andre says, "it was reported that people
using their system no longer use their voice phones"
[on monitor <427, 14 secs>] Scamper [to Amy]: "but how much of a
bias are you taking from the real world, and putting into the virtual
world? As far as gender studies go, it seems like a boys club. How
are you trying to alleviate this, if at all?
[on monitor <428, 2 secs>] Pavel says, "The system is not yet
deployed for general use, but all of the audio and video technologies
are, in a less flexible package. The response to those tool has been
extremely positive."
[on monitor <429, 35 secs>] Jade_Guest goes out.
[on monitor <430, 0 secs>] Andre says, "The moo-part is not yet
deployed, but the audio/video over the net has?"
[on monitor <431, 0 secs>] . . . the camera pans left to right over
Autumn Conference Room . . .
[on monitor <432, 0 secs>] A mellow, comfortable room with lots
of sofas and couches. Outside, the trees along Memorial Drive are a
luminous golden color, and whitecaps are showing on the windswept
Charles River Basin. The faint odour of burning leaves drifts in
through an open window.
[on monitor <433, 21 secs>]
[on monitor <434, 3 secs>] Scamper says, "not as in gender studies as
boys club, but the Moo as boys club"
[on monitor <435, 8 secs>] Amy [to Scamper]: what seems like a boys
club? MediaMOO isn't, IMHO. And the MUD for kids doesn't exist
yet... but there may well be some girls only classes in the after school
program I plan to run to introduce kids to the kids MUD
[on monitor <436, 28 secs>] Pavel [to Andre]: Those people who
customarily keep the audio tool running do, in fact, often use it in
preference to the normal telephone. It's easier to do, and allows
more than 2-way conversations simply.
[on monitor <437, 6 secs>] Scamper says, "what is the male female
ratio on the moo?"
[on monitor <438, 34 secs>] Pavel nods to Andre. "We didn't
develop the audio and video networking technology; we're just
putting it into the MUD context.
[on monitor <439, 45 secs>] Scamper says, "so what's the alcohol
content of Zima?"
[on monitor <440, 20 secs>] Laurie materializes out of thin air.
[on monitor <441, 3 secs>] Rez [to Pavel]: "Do you view this system
as a graphics expanded MOO or as embryonic VR?Where is the line?
[on monitor <442, 14 secs>] Pavel [to Scamper]: The M/F ratio
depends strongly on the MUD. On LambdaMOO, I estimate that it's
around 70/30 or 60/40.
[on monitor <443, 3 secs>] Maximum number of speakers set to 8
[on monitor <444, 26 secs>] Maximum number of speakers set to 8
[on monitor <445, 0 secs>] Ralph124c41 says, "i don't get the
impress that the ratio of is that high"
[on monitor <446, 10 secs>] Pavel [to Rez]: I don't specialize in lines
very much. I think that MUDs are virtual realities with a
particularly low-bandwidth communications medium.
[on monitor <447, 3 secs>] Person [to Amy]: I wonder if you might
have preliminary findings from MediaMOO that you might want to
share with us.
[on monitor <448, 10 secs>] Scamper says, "is this medium safe?
What makes it so?"
[on monitor <449, 0 secs>] Andre [to Pavel]: Do you see the goal as
full immersion systems?
[on monitor <450, 32 secs>] Pavel [to Ralph124c41]: When I made
smaller estimates, several RL female MOOers corrected me.
[on monitor <451, 33 secs>] Scamper says, "do you try to incorporate
danger?"
[on monitor <452, 7 secs>] PeterK says, "A broader question is, what
sorts of deviance already exist on MediaMOO?""
[on monitor <453, 5 secs>] Pavel [to Andre]: The goal is productive or
fun systems (depending on the application). For non-recreational
systems like Jupiter, the goal is high interpersonal communications
bandwidth, measured in usefulness, not bits.
[on monitor <454, 6 secs>] Scamper says, "good question Peter!"
[on monitor <455, 22 secs>] Person says, "mmmm, deviance...."
[on monitor <456, 4 secs>] Person says, "i've heard about Nomad."
[on monitor <457, 88 secs>] Rez says, "I've also heard..."
[on monitor <458, 11 secs>] PeterK [to Amy]: Have you had to deal
with the 'problem' of someone behaving in an objectionable way?
[on monitor <459, 9 secs>] Maximum number of speakers set to 11
[on monitor <460, 22 secs>] Scamper says, "wait a minute, who
decides objectionable?"
[on monitor <461, 21 secs>] Person says, "We'll use the mainstream
cultural norms for now."
[on monitor <462, 22 secs>] destae19 says, "you would make a great
epos sociologist scamper"
[on monitor <463, 22 secs>] Pavel thinks people who are interested
in deviant or objectionable behavior on MUDs should check out
several of the debates now raging on LambdaMOO around various
proposals for dealing with same.
[on monitor <464, 1 secs>] Andre [to Pavel]: could you describe those
debates?
[on monitor <465, 4 secs>] Ralph124c41 says, "the behavior or
the.....?"
[on monitor <466, 10 secs>] Maximum number of speakers set to 12
[on monitor <467, 8 secs>] PeterK [to Pavel]: I found the list of
manners for LambdaMOO very interesting
[on monitor <468, 12 secs>] Ralph124c41 says, "could you illustrate
those debates?"
[on monitor <469, 7 secs>] Scamper says, "so how much power to
you have, can you dump anyone you decide as dviant?, is there a list
of deviant behavior, was it fun to make the list?"
[on monitor <470, 31 secs>] Pavel [to Andre]: Probably not very well.
They are very complex debates with speakers coming from a number
of diverse points of view.
[on monitor <471, 10 secs>] Amy [to PeterK]: Pavel has much more
experience with antisocial behavior than I do.
[on monitor <472, 8 secs>] Andre [to Pavel]: I see. You recently gave
up an active role in social disputes in the MOO, didn't you?
[on monitor <473, 6 secs>] Pavel frowns at Amy. "What are you
implying? :-)"
[on monitor <474, 7 secs>] Wade [to PeterK]: I don't want to speak
for Amy, but since she isn't currently a speaker I will just say that
the issue has come up. Her approach is to try to solve the problem in
a collegial, low-key, non-threatening way by speaking with the
offending user.
[on monitor <475, 13 secs>] PeterK [to Amy]: No doubt! But will that
be so in the future?
[on monitor <476, 2 secs>] Scamper says, ""
[on monitor <477, 5 secs>] Laughing_Star says, "I think there is less
"objectionable" behavior here than in other mu*'s, because of the
nature of mediaMOO"
[on monitor <478, 3 secs>] Beth says, "Pavel: assuming there is no
archival system running on LambdaMOO, how would one 'check out'
the debates... any particular place for discussion? conferences?"
[on monitor <479, 1 secs>] Wade says, "Ooops! Sorry, Amy is a
speaker after all.""
[on monitor <480, 1 secs>] Laughing_Star has disconnected.
[on monitor <481, 4 secs>] Amy [to PeterK]: this is a much smaller
place and I currently have the luxury of dealing things in a personal,
friendly way
[on monitor <482, 8 secs>] Wade takes his foot out of his mouth.
[on monitor <483, 1 secs>] Laughing_Star has connected.
[on monitor <484, 2 secs>] Amy says, "thanks wade. I just got in the
queue"
[on monitor <485, 10 secs>] Pavel [to Andre]: Yes, the LambdaMOO
wizards stopped officially intervening in social disputes as of about
six months ago.
[on monitor <486, 10 secs>] Amy [to Pavel]: I mean LambdaMOO is
bigger!
[on monitor <487, 6 secs>] Andre [to Pavel&Amy]: to pavel This is
interesting
[on monitor <488, 3 secs>] Scamper says, "ah, bringing up the
concept of threat, is the threat in the user of the creator, and how do
you differentiate between the two?"
[on monitor <489, 3 secs>] Amy [to PeterK]: I have chosen *not* to
judge or intervene
[on monitor <490, 4 secs>] Pavel says, "We got tired of trying to be
Mommy and Daddy to thousands of people 24 hours a day..."
[on monitor <491, 12 secs>] Andre [to Pavel]: after the "Leviathan"
left the sceen, what happened to the MOO?
[on monitor <492, 5 secs>] Laughing_Star says, "I think there is less
"objectionable" behavior here than other mu*'s, because of the nature
of mediaMOO. I like this one the best; it has a higher level of
maturity."
[on monitor <493, 15 secs>] Scamper says, "who's Liathan, please
explain"
[on monitor <494, 13 secs>] Amy [to PeterK]: I believe people who
"act out" in that fashion are just trying to get attention. if you can
spare the time, being friendly and understanding goes a long way
[on monitor <495, 2 secs>] Person says, "Maturity can be variously
defined."
[on monitor <496, 7 secs>] Andre [to all]: Leviathan = Hobbes notion
of a supreme social power (king) to ensure social order
[on monitor <497, 16 secs>] Scamper says, "what's a matter with
getting attention, isn't that art?"
[on monitor <498, 1 secs>] Pavel [to Andre]: It's hard to say. I think
that there was, indeed, a certain increase in abuse and antisocial
behavior, but not as much as some had feared. Right now, though,
through the petitions and ballots system, the users are socially
constructing a form of government to deal with the problem.
[on monitor <499, 2 secs>] Ralph124c41 says, "what's the matter
with art? isn't it getting attention?"
[on monitor <500, 7 secs>] Person says, "I would not want to exclude
too much immaturity."
list1 501 to 600
Ralph124c41 lists a section of rtape1000.
[on monitor <501, 38 secs>] PeterK [to Amy]: But if this is successful,
this will become a very large group. Then what?
[on monitor <502, 3 secs>] Wade [to Scamper]: There are artistic
ways to get attention, but not all attention-getting maneuvers qualify
as art!
[on monitor <503, 5 secs>] Andre [to Pavel]: this is a very interesting
development to me: in the absence of external autority, there is a
endogenous development of order.
[on monitor <504, 7 secs>] Pisthetairos says, "[to pavel] Are you
taking the approach of theWELL when dealing with rules of
interaction?"
[on monitor <505, 1 secs>] Laughing_Star has disconnected.
[on monitor <506, 1 secs>] Ralph124c41 stands and sits quickly
trying to start a wave...
[on monitor <507, 2 secs>] Amy [to PeterK]: many people enjoy
testing limits. If you draw a line 'this is ok; that isn't' then they will
just bop back with something testing that line, somewhere in
between. I prefer to refuse to ever draw that line but instead say
'here is some feedback from your peers. you should think about this'
[on monitor <508, 1 secs>] Pavel [to PeterK]: The user community
here is, on average, far older than the one on LambdaMOO.
[on monitor <509, 25 secs>] Laughing_Star has connected.
[on monitor <510, 6 secs>] Scamper [to Wade]: "but do you qualify
art on the moo? and what do you qualify as deviance, or "getting
attention?
[on monitor <511, 3 secs>] Jay says, "Kinda sheepishly, I should point
out that during the transition period, a fair number of LambdaMOO
regulars `gave up' on the community."
[on monitor <512, 2 secs>] Ralph124c41 says, "i get the impression
the (mental) age at lambda moo is about 12"
[on monitor <513, 3 secs>] Andre [to Pavel]: Have there been any
social deviance problems in the AstroVR Moo?
[on monitor <514, 6 secs>] Pavel [to Pisthetairos]: I'm not sure, since
I don't know what you're referring to there. Certainly we're not
emulating them in any conscious way.
[on monitor <515, 2 secs>] Laughing_Star disappears suddenly for
parts unknown.
[on monitor <516, 17 secs>] Amy [to PeterK]: I think it would be nice
to have subcommunities of a reasonable size, then. so that things can
still be dealt with in this personal fashion. For example, on
TrekMUSE, each starship forms a subcommunity
[on monitor <517, 5 secs>] Jay says, "And there's a fair amount of
frustration with the politicization of the community, but a fair
amount of it I think is impatience."
[on monitor <518, 6 secs>] Pavel [to Andre]: We only have two real
users there so far, so it's way to easy to tell if there will be any
problems.
[on monitor <519, 3 secs>] Scamper says, "good question Andre!"
[on monitor <520, 11 secs>] PeterK [to Amy]: Interesting idea
[on monitor <521, 11 secs>] Ralph124c41 says, "sounds like
community control al classic maoist communism."
[on monitor <522, 7 secs>] Andre [to Jay]: could you say more about
the politicizatioon?
[on monitor <523, 21 secs>] Pavel nods to Jay.
[on monitor <524, 8 secs>] Wade [to Scamper]: I don't want to try to
define 'art.' But there are clearly certain ways of getting attention,
for example by attributing obnoxious actions or messages to other
users, that are simply inappropriate in the kind of community we are
trying to build here.
[on monitor <525, 22 secs>] Ralph124c41 thinks: do we have enough
beer to make it to 6?
[on monitor <526, 2 secs>] Andre thinks we just might
[on monitor <527, 12 secs>] Amy says, "the more I observe online
communites, the more I understand the benefits of representative
rather than direct democracy"
[on monitor <528, 1 secs>] Jay [to Andre]: Um, hm. Very often now
`rights' and `victims' is the language that debate is phrased in, more
than before.
[on monitor <529, 3 secs>] Pavel smiles at Amy and agrees.
[on monitor <530, 13 secs>] Jay nodsnods Amy.
[on monitor <531, 2 secs>] Guilt goes out.
[on monitor <532, 8 secs>] PeterK smiles toward Amy
[on monitor <533, 5 secs>] Scamper says, "but being obnoxious, i'm
feel sketchy when somebody tries to exclude me, should I just bail
out of the Moo, because nobody accepts me, or should I start my
own, wait for one to come? commit suicide, become an artist?"
[on monitor <534, 16 secs>] destae19 says, "so cute"
[on monitor <535, 4 secs>] Andre [to Amy]: So, here on the threshold
of "electronic Democracy" we are coming to realize that it *is* the
worst of all forms of government, except for all the others?
[on monitor <536, 3 secs>] Ralph124c41 says, "let's vote on that
scamper"
[on monitor <537, 4 secs>] Person says, "Start your own!"
[on monitor <538, 10 secs>] Jay [to Andre]: Also, we're starting to see
some petitions that propose things that willing players could create
and implement on their own.
[on monitor <539, 14 secs>] Person says, "Give birth to a new free
community."
[on monitor <540, 1 secs>] Pavel [to Scamper]: As in real life, there
will be virtual communities into which you will fit and ones into
which you won't. Why should VR be any different in this respect
from RL?
[on monitor <541, 18 secs>] Person says, "To each her one and we
will have fun!"
[on monitor <542, 1 secs>] PeterK says, "In one sense, these places
have the great luxury still of not being too large""
[on monitor <543, 1 secs>] Person says, "And be enriched of course."
[on monitor <544, 0 secs>] Amy [to Andre]: not at all. What is
remarkable is that I believe that this medium helps people to
understand issues of government by experiencing
[on monitor <545, 22 secs>] Jay doesn't fit into LambdaMOO any
more.
[on monitor <546, 8 secs>] Amy [to Andre]: by being between reality
and unreality, they are evocative and help us to understand reality
[on monitor <547, 7 secs>] Wade [to Scamper]: There are plenty of
MOOs where no holds are barred. Outrageous behavior is not
necessary here, and it wouldn't be an abridgment of anyone's civil
rights to ask them to keep it to a minimum.
[on monitor <548, 8 secs>] Mikol materializes out of thin air.
[on monitor <549, 1 secs>] Pisthetairos says, "how soon will it be
when the casual user will be able to start a moo?"
[on monitor <550, 17 secs>] Andre [to Amy]: MOOs become workshop
like communities, places to work out issues?
[on monitor <551, 3 secs>] Amy [to Andre]: I think there is some
interesting potential for experimentation with many forms of
government-- probably better than taking a course in it
[on monitor <552, 1 secs>] Jay [to wayne]: Wait, name some MOOs
where no holds are barred.
[on monitor <553, 34 secs>] Scamper says, "but isn't this what is
shitty about RL? that those that are excluded must leave? Is A moo
great just because there is so much room? and is there really a lot of
room, or is it that there is a limit economically to how much Moo you
can have? If thos"
[on monitor <554, 2 secs>] Laurie has disconnected.
[on monitor <555, 8 secs>] Amy [to Andre]: by being between reality
and unreality, they help us to understand the nature of reality
[on monitor <556, 1 secs>] Pavel [to Pisthetairos]: It's still some ways
off. There are serious administrative issues involved in running one
right now.
[on monitor <557, 1 secs>] Ralph124c41 says, "hey there's no more
or less room in a moo than there is IRL"
[on monitor <558, 24 secs>] Person says, "I aggree that there should
be social spheres with defined notions of expected behavior, building
in some restrictions. That way we all have a subcommunity in which
to participate."
[on monitor <559, 3 secs>] Amy [to Andre]: like the debate about
violence on habitat-- what a remarkable story! (did you read that
chapter of _First Steps_ for this class?)
[on monitor <560, 6 secs>] Wade [to Jay]: Perhaps I was being
hyperbolic -- I don't know specifically which MUDs are wierdness-
friendly but I've heard of a ChaosMUD, for example.
[on monitor <561, 1 secs>] Laurie has connected.
[on monitor <562, 2 secs>] PeterK [to Person]: How do you defend the
boundaries
[on monitor <563, 25 secs>] Andre [to Amy]: Yes, we did
[on monitor <564, 12 secs>] tina goes home.
[on monitor <565, 9 secs>] Jay [to Person]: Are you on Moo-cows? I
have some thoughts on how to structure MOO to make these
subcommunities more explicit if desired.
[on monitor <566, 9 secs>] Ralph124c41 says, "PeterK: somebody
will inevitably come along to define the boundaries for you."
[on monitor <567, 0 secs>] Wade [to Scamper]: There isn't a lot of
room, really. We just divide it up into lots of virtual rooms!
[on monitor <568, 10 secs>] Amy is almost done writing a paper
about gender-swapping in MUDs
[on monitor <569, 10 secs>] Wade [to Beth]: Sure, e-mail me if you'd
like.
[on monitor <570, 1 secs>] PeterK [to Amy]: Could you say a few
words
[on monitor <571, 7 secs>] Person [to Jay]: No, I'm not, but sounds
interesting.
[on monitor <572, 16 secs>] Jay [to Wade]: I don't know of any MOOs.
MUDs, sure, but most of the obnoxious ones are combat-oriented.
[on monitor <573, 4 secs>] Amy [to PeterK]: about gender swapping?
[on monitor <574, 0 secs>] Ralph124c41 says, "Amy: have you read
Garfinkel's essay on Agnes in re sex presenting?"
[on monitor <575, 3 secs>] Scamper says, "after this conference, we
should get everybody's e-mail adress, so we can exchange
notes/papers/bomb threats"
[on monitor <576, 0 secs>] Andre [to Amy]: to Amy You have raised
the distinction between MOOs and RL a few times and I wonder if its
a necessary distinction - what after all is the difference between the
two?
[on monitor <577, 32 secs>] PeterK [to Amy]: Yes..
[on monitor <578, 6 secs>] Pavel [to Scamper]: You can use the
`@whois <name>' command here to find out email addresses.
[on monitor <579, 4 secs>] Jay [to Person]: Essentially, the changes to
the server would allow the wizards to securely create sub-MOOs with
their own sub-wizards, and sub-sub-MOOs etc
[on monitor <580, 8 secs>] Laurie disappears suddenly for parts
unknown.
[on monitor <581, 16 secs>] Amy [to PeterK]: basically, I argue that
gender swapping is an example of one way in which the network
changes people's culture and values
[on monitor <582, 9 secs>] Yea has arrived.
[on monitor <583, 5 secs>] Pisthetairos says, "When MOOs are easily
accessable by a larger amount of the population, i predict a huge
boom in special interest MOOs (i.e. pernMUSH)"
[on monitor <584, 8 secs>] PeterK [to Amy]: Though @more
[on monitor <585, 7 secs>] Pavel agrees with Pisthetairos.
[on monitor <586, 3 secs>] Scamper [to Amy,"but]: is this a change of
culture, or a fitting of culture on the Moo?
[on monitor <587, 1 secs>] Person [,to]: Jay Ok, sounds good. I mean a
little community is nice, but noone wants to be restricted by the
community and there's no reasion why we can't foster more freedom
in cyberspace.
[on monitor <588, 7 secs>] Jay is confused, thought that MUD was the
generic term for these text-based vrs.
[on monitor <589, 12 secs>] Wade [to Jay]: You're right about that,
I'm sure. I should have said MUDs, not MOOs.
[on monitor <590, 2 secs>] PeterK [to Amy]: though it tends to be
almost all m to f rather than vica versa, yes?
[on monitor <591, 19 secs>] Pavel nods to Jay. "Me too..."
[on monitor <592, 1 secs>] Laurie materializes out of thin air.
[on monitor <593, 6 secs>] Amy [to PeterK]: the opportunity to be
the opposite gender (without risk of social stigma or large time
investment) helps people to defamiliarize every day experiennce and
throws into high relief the way gender structures basic human
interactions-- something which is always true, but often hard to
observe
[on monitor <594, 8 secs>] Pavel shakes his head at PeterK. "Not at
all..."
[on monitor <595, 1 secs>] Jay [to Person]: Oh no, players would be
able to go anywhere, but their bodies would obey the universe rules
of whatever sub-MOO they were in, until they jacked out of it.
[on monitor <596, 30 secs>] PeterK says, "really?"
[on monitor <597, 4 secs>] Amy [to PeterK]: some women get tired of
being besieged with attention and decide to be guys so they can be
left alone
[on monitor <598, 21 secs>] Pavel says, "Many female users present
as male on MUDs, usually primarily to avoid harrassment."
[on monitor <599, 22 secs>] PeterK looks interested
[on monitor <600, 2 secs>] Amy [to PeterK]: women also, on a
somewhat related subject, often use the ability to represent your self
to explore issues of body image
list1 601 to 700
Ralph124c41 lists a section of rtape1000.
[on monitor <601, 7 secs>] SARAH looks interested
[on monitor <602, 5 secs>] Pavel points to his paper on social
phenomena in MUDs.
[on monitor <603, 3 secs>] Jay says, "Many female users present as
spivak (a form of neuter), which tends to make people suspect any
spivak-presenter of being female."
[on monitor <604, 22 secs>] Andre [to all]: I wonder: the solution to
social problems in cyberspace often is: create more real estate. Can
that go on forever?
[on monitor <605, 3 secs>] Jay [to Andre]: Information expands to fill
all available capacity.
[on monitor <606, 28 secs>] PeterK says, "interesting question"
[on monitor <607, 7 secs>] Beth has disconnected.
[on monitor <608, 8 secs>] Amy [to Andre]: that's what so interesting
about these governmental debates on MUDs. they are often
confronting the very real issue of the limited resources of the
machine
[on monitor <609, 6 secs>] Scamper says, "is spivak named after the
french theorist?"
[on monitor <610, 2 secs>] Pavel [to Andre]: I think that impulse is
related to the one causing the current wave of Balkanization on a
national scale in the real world. I think breaking up into smaller
communities is a healthy impulse, but often those people end up
feeling isolated.
[on monitor <611, 0 secs>] Pisthetairos says, "are there MOOs in
which you can't define your gender?"
[on monitor <612, 2 secs>] Jay [to Andre]: Also, there have been
some disasters when the technology wasn't ready for it. TinyMUD
Classic had somewhere around 100k objects when it went down, with
at *least* 20k rooms. And nobody used them.
[on monitor <613, 5 secs>] Wade [to Andre]: I don't see how that can
be a solution. It's only 'virtual real estate' that you're creating; you
still have the same number of people using the server, who have to
get along with each other. Unless you just want to subdivide the
population so people don't run into each other as often; but that
defeats the whole point of social VR.
[on monitor <614, 7 secs>] Amy [to Andre]: balancing ideals like
'everyone should be able to build' with resource limitations
[on monitor <615, 13 secs>] Andre says, "True, but by creating new
space, isn't the solution to alwasy *avoid* conflict, not resolve it?"
[on monitor <616, 15 secs>] Pavel [to Pisthetairos]: Not that I'm
aware of.
[on monitor <617, 12 secs>] Amy [to Andre]: many MUDs get shut
down because they grow too big. these issues come up all the time
and provoke fascinating debates
[on monitor <618, 1 secs>] Andre steps out for a moment
[on monitor <619, 4 secs>] Jay doesn't want a partition of people, he
wants overlapping groups
[on monitor <620, 1 secs>] PeterK says, "The thing about breaking up
into small communities.."
[on monitor <621, 16 secs>] Scamper [to the]: females
[on monitor <622, 14 secs>] PeterK says, "is that it encourages
cooperation within the group, but.."
[on monitor <623, 8 secs>] PeterK says, "can encourage conflict
across group boundaries"
[on monitor <624, 4 secs>] Pisthetairos says, "Why is that an
essential function, as apposed to say race or religion?"
[on monitor <625, 3 secs>] Amy nods to peterk. "Interesting issue"
[on monitor <626, 22 secs>] Scamper [to the]: females, is gender
important to you on the Moo? do you want to REALLY know who
you are talking to?
[on monitor <627, 10 secs>] Jay, in his groups, tends more often to
talk to the human on the other end instead of the player.
[on monitor <628, 5 secs>] PeterK says, "In-group identity is a very
double-edged source of cooperation"
[on monitor <629, 17 secs>] Scamper [to Jay]:
[on monitor <630, 3 secs>] Scamper says, "how do you differentiate
between human and player? "
[on monitor <631, 33 secs>] Pavel [to Pisthetairos]: Perhaps because
it is (almost) universally a dividing line in communities. For race or
religion, you often find homogenous communities, but not so for
gender.
[on monitor <632, 1 secs>] Bob materializes out of thin air.
[on monitor <633, 1 secs>] SARAH says, "yes I want to know who I
am talking to, things do tend to fall into place"
[on monitor <634, 5 secs>] Amy [to PeterK]: my example of
subcommunities was ships on trekmuse. ships are organized into
empires. in times of peace, people on ships in the same empire fight
like rival high schools. in times of war, they bond together against
the enemy. but in trekmuse, there's always an enemy to shoot at--
that's part of the point.
[on monitor <635, 14 secs>] Scamper says, "Does everybody agree
that Zima burps like beer?"
[on monitor <636, 9 secs>] PeterK says, "interesting"
[on monitor <637, 3 secs>] Jay [to Scamper]: well, like in most text
media, it's easy to forget that there's actually a real live person out
there somewhere instead of just a stream of ASCII characters
[on monitor <638, 4 secs>] Amy [to PeterK]: I don't know what
happens without an enemy...
[on monitor <639, 19 secs>] Pavel says, "The desire to know the
gender of the people you're talking to is not, by any means, limited
to women."
[on monitor <640, 6 secs>] SARAH says, "good point Pavel"
[on monitor <641, 20 secs>] PeterK [to Amy]: Actually, the one factor
that has been shown to break down group boundaries is a super-
ordinate enemy
[on monitor <642, 3 secs>] The housekeeper arrives to cart Beth off
to bed.
[on monitor <643, 3 secs>] PeterK [to Amy]: It explains alot of
political rhetoric
[on monitor <644, 15 secs>] Jay hehs at PeterK
[on monitor <645, 2 secs>] Amy listens with interest.
[on monitor <646, 12 secs>] Wade [to PeterK]: But only temporarily,
as E. Europe illustrates.
[on monitor <647, 14 secs>] PeterK says, "Quite true"
[on monitor <648, 1 secs>] Laurie has disconnected.
[on monitor <649, 11 secs>] PeterK says, "You have to continually re-
invent the evil empire"
[on monitor <650, 1 secs>] Jay . o O ( fortress europa )
[on monitor <651, 9 secs>] Laurie has connected.
[on monitor <652, 0 secs>] . . . the camera pans left to right over
Autumn Conference Room . . .
[on monitor <653, 0 secs>] A mellow, comfortable room with lots
of sofas and couches. Outside, the trees along Memorial Drive are a
luminous golden color, and whitecaps are showing on the windswept
Charles River Basin. The faint odour of burning leaves drifts in
through an open window.
[on monitor <654, 1 secs>]
[on monitor <655, 26 secs>] Wade says, "Our evil empire now seems
to be either Japan or Fundamentalist Islam."
[on monitor <656, 3 secs>] Jay [to Wade]: How 'bout the US
Government?
[on monitor <657, 3 secs>] Jay :-)
[on monitor <658, 12 secs>] Person says, "I see no problem with
subcommunities, but there does need to be a core normative
commitment that is minimal, but which bonds together the entire
community of subcommunities."
[on monitor <659, 1 secs>] Jay nods to Person.
[on monitor <660, 14 secs>] SARAH -)
[on monitor <661, 4 secs>] Amy . o O ( this is where the
interdisciplinary nature of this place gets really exciting. )
[on monitor <662, 32 secs>] Wade laughs.
[on monitor <663, 0 secs>] PeterK goes out.
[on monitor <664, 4 secs>] Scamper says, "so, has psychoanalytic
theory invaded the moo yet?"
[on monitor <665, 17 secs>] Pavel is going to have to leave pretty
soon. "Did anyone have any other questions specifically for me,
before I go?"
[on monitor <666, 11 secs>] PeterK has arrived.
[on monitor <667, 6 secs>] Jay [to Pavel]: <the technical question you
know I have to ask>
[on monitor <668, 1 secs>] Silver_Guest materializes out of thin air.
[on monitor <669, 1 secs>] Jay ducks
[on monitor <670, 6 secs>] Pisthetairos says, "[to Pavel] I assume the
gender separation is universal because of the tlink to the physical is
obvious, but in this 'new dimension' with no physical body, per se,
why are we so determined to stay with it?"
[on monitor <671, 3 secs>] Pavel [to Jay]: Don't ask. :-)
[on monitor <672, 6 secs>] Wade [to Person]: I agree -- One thing
that will be good for all concerned on MediaMOO is if the STS users
cross-pollinate ideas and interests with the computers & media folks.
But the overriding interest of all is in the professional & education
uses of MUDs.
[on monitor <673, 3 secs>] Jay giggles.
[on monitor <674, 25 secs>] Ralph124c41 says, "i'm still curious
about how much of what you're doing at xerox is for the research,
and how fast it ends up in the market--given parc's experience with
apple."
[on monitor <675, 2 secs>] Jay [to Pavel]: Actually, a real question:
what is the copyright status of LambdaCore?
[on monitor <676, 27 secs>] Pavel [to Pisthetairos]: Because we are
still physical beings. Remember, it's only the space that's new; the
people are just exactly the same as before.
[on monitor <677, 29 secs>] Pavel [to Jay]: Damn good question. Next
question? :-) Sorry, but I really don't know.
[on monitor <678, 8 secs>] Bob goes home.
[on monitor <679, 12 secs>] Laurie disappears suddenly for parts
unknown.
[on monitor <680, 10 secs>] Rez says, "Who owns our words here?
Do we own our own? Does the MOO own them?"
[on monitor <681, 22 secs>] Ralph124c41 says, "good question"
[on monitor <682, 0 secs>] Diane materializes out of thin air.
[on monitor <683, 16 secs>] Ralph124c41 says, "i know i'm going to
cite you in my paper and not ask for your permission"
[on monitor <684, 16 secs>] Andre [to pave&jay]: It is a good
question: what is the ownership rights of contributors to remote
projects?
[on monitor <685, 11 secs>] Andre says, "its not going to be settled
easily, I suspect"
[on monitor <686, 1 secs>] Diane disappears suddenly for parts
unknown.
[on monitor <687, 1 secs>] Cerulean_Guest has arrived.
[on monitor <688, 3 secs>] Wade [to Rez]: My guess would be that
the speaker owns his/her words unless they've explicitly ceded that
ownership.
[on monitor <689, 12 secs>] Scamper says, "is sexuality absent from
the moo? do you try to eliminate it in the creation,?"
[on monitor <690, 0 secs>] Ralph124c41 says, "not under the law
they don't"
[on monitor <691, 5 secs>] Jay says, "The first piece of MOO in-db
software that I know of with a copyright is $gopher."
[on monitor <692, 13 secs>] Pavel [to Andre]: We don't even know
the real situation on copyright or ownership of email. MUDs are
much harder...
[on monitor <693, 1 secs>] Amy [to Rez]: are you asking legally or
socially?
[on monitor <694, 3 secs>] Andre [to Wade]: This is the WELL Yoyow
priciple
[on monitor <695, 12 secs>] Bacall materializes out of thin air.
[on monitor <696, 1 secs>] Guilt has arrived.
[on monitor <697, 11 secs>] Pavel [to Scamper]: Sexuality is
*certainly not* absent. There is a quite a lot of MUD sex going on.
[on monitor <698, 1 secs>] Jay hehs
[on monitor <699, 18 secs>] Wade [to Andre]: Please explain -- you
are what you write? <-- A guess.
[on monitor <700, 2 secs>] Amy says, "You Own Your Own Words"
list1 701 to 800
Ralph124c41 lists a section of rtape1000.
[on monitor <701, 9 secs>] Jay says, "Player classes have been
written to expediate MUD sex, in fact."
[on monitor <702, 2 secs>] Wade nods, enlightened.
[on monitor <703, 17 secs>] Pavel nods to Jay.
[on monitor <704, 1 secs>] Silver_Guest disappears suddenly for
parts unknown.
[on monitor <705, 14 secs>] Jay says, "back in the bad old days of
the bigoted player class wars"
[on monitor <706, 2 secs>] Pavel says, "Seriously, a lot of people
have found that MUDs are a very interesting arena for explicitly
sexual speech and `activity'."
[on monitor <707, 28 secs>] Ralph124c41 says, "Jay, do we need a
new program to prolong moo sex?"
[on monitor <708, 2 secs>] Amy says, "the creators of the WELL
invented that phrase because they were afraid of legal liability...
they meant 'you are responsible for your own words' but the
wording they chose for the maxim conveyed something quite
different"
[on monitor <709, 18 secs>] Jay peers at his diction
[on monitor <710, 10 secs>] Ralph124c41 says, "good point"
[on monitor <711, 21 secs>] Scamper says, "Azure, I'm trying to get
whisper to work, and am still figuring it out, that's not what I'm
trying to say"
[on monitor <712, 7 secs>] Maximum number of speakers set to 15
[on monitor <713, 19 secs>] Ralph124c41 says, "despite what they
say over there, i don't think the law would agree that YOYOW"
[on monitor <714, 4 secs>] Andre says, "YOYOW has not had a legal
test as yet."
[on monitor <715, 1 secs>] Guest says, "longer is not always better ...
is it?"
[on monitor <716, 1 secs>] Person [to Amy]: What findings do you
have on the subject of MOO sex on MediaMOO?
[on monitor <717, 19 secs>] Jay is taking a more formal tone here
than he usually does online, and thus should be thinking a little more
about what he writes, since it's not what he's used to.
[on monitor <718, 3 secs>] Andre says, "But it has had a number of
social tests, some quite rigorous"
[on monitor <719, 2 secs>] Jay bets YOYOW got a big boost from the
Berne Convention
[on monitor <720, 2 secs>] Ralph124c41 says, "would Jay like to
explain that, Jay?"
[on monitor <721, 10 secs>] LynC goes home.
[on monitor <722, 0 secs>] destae19 says, "do you have something
personal that you want to contribute person?"
[on monitor <723, 5 secs>] Amy says, "I suppose the law turns on
the idea of 'reasonable expectation of privacy' And here it's
reasonable to exptect none! Which is a shame"
[on monitor <724, 8 secs>] Pavel has to head off now. "Bye, all. It
was fun chatting with y'all."
[on monitor <725, 7 secs>] Pavel waves.
[on monitor <726, 1 secs>] PeterK [to Pavel]: Thanks
[on monitor <727, 0 secs>] Pavel goes out.
[on monitor <728, 5 secs>] Ralph124c41 says, "Bye! thanks!"
[on monitor <729, 0 secs>] Andre says, "Bye!"
[on monitor <730, 2 secs>] Guest says, "privacy may be the greatest
hinderance to sexual freedom"
[on monitor <731, 0 secs>] destae19 says, "ta!"
[on monitor <732, 7 secs>] Person says, "Bye Pavel. Thanks."
[on monitor <733, 3 secs>] Jay [to Ralph124c41]: well, I'm usta
talking like this on my moo, where we're all pretty casual. I'm trying
to fit in here, so my speech patterns shift, sorta.
[on monitor <734, 14 secs>] Wade says, "Here's a real-world test of
all this: How would people feel if a transcript of this session were
available for anonymous ftp? or on a MOO videotape? (both of which
are planned)"
[on monitor <735, 10 secs>] Person says, "But we can always lock
rooms."
[on monitor <736, 1 secs>] Guest says, "as long as we get no crank
phone calls :-)"
[on monitor <737, 3 secs>] Rez says, "Thanks Pavel"
[on monitor <738, 6 secs>] Person says, "If one is a creator of it."
[on monitor <739, 33 secs>] Jay knew there was a recording device
here and this is a public room, so he doesn't really care that much.
[on monitor <740, 4 secs>] Andre says, "Keep in mind that a
"reasonable expectation of privacy" is an American convention"
[on monitor <741, 2 secs>] Jay [to Ralph124c41]: It wasn't conscious
until you picked at my word choice back there. :-)
[on monitor <742, 1 secs>] Person says, "This public discourse."
[on monitor <743, 5 secs>] Andre says, "And Moos are not merely
American"
[on monitor <744, 0 secs>] Amy nods to andre. "Good point"
[on monitor <745, 5 secs>] Ralph124c41 says, "Who was it back
there that was saying YOYOW gots boost from Berne? I think that's a
misreading"
[on monitor <746, 4 secs>] Person says, "This is public discourse."
[on monitor <747, 16 secs>] Jay
[on monitor <748, 8 secs>] Not really --Guilt
[on monitor <749, 37 secs>] Andre [to Person]: Semi-public - there
are sever technical boundaries
[on monitor <750, 12 secs>] Jay says, "YOYOW was not the point of
Berne, but it seems closer than the previous state."
[on monitor <751, 11 secs>] Wade says, "That's what I figured."
[on monitor <752, 1 secs>] Wade wonders what department is
offering this sociology of cyberspace class, and what kinds of
requirements it satisfies, if any.
[on monitor <753, 18 secs>] Guest says, "what did you figure"
[on monitor <754, 4 secs>] Ralph124c41 says, "Jay-that's a wish that
I don't think the law would agree with. "
[on monitor <755, 1 secs>] Andre says, "Open question: The nets are
getting bigger and more "public" - any ideas how the "public" will
take to MOOs?"
[on monitor <756, 2 secs>] Howard has arrived.
[on monitor <757, 15 secs>] Wade [to Guest]: I figured that people
did not have qualms about the taping & dissemination of this
conversation.
[on monitor <758, 1 secs>] Amy [to Person]: to answer a question
you asked a few minutes ago, I don't know anything about TinySex
(that's what it's often called) on MediaMOO. But I have interviewed
MUDders who practice it regularly-- online and in person-- as part of
a project I conducted with Sherry Turkle last summer
[on monitor <759, 1 secs>] PeterK [to Wade]: it's being offered as a
seniot/graduate seminar in sociology
[on monitor <760, 7 secs>] Guest says, "oh, yeah that's ok"
[on monitor <761, 0 secs>] . . .the camera zooms in on Howard. . .
[on monitor <762, 5 secs>] I swim in media soup.
[on monitor <763, 3 secs>] Guilt flattens out into a largish 29 cent
postage stamp and floats away.
[on monitor <764, 21 secs>] Andre [to Wade]: Sociology of
Cyberspace is an Offering of the Dept of Sociology, UCLA
[on monitor <765, 10 secs>] Andre [to Howard]: Welcome!
[on monitor <766, 1 secs>] Guilt materializes out of thin air.
[on monitor <767, 3 secs>] PeterK [to Howard]: Thanks for coming
[on monitor <768, 15 secs>] Andre [to everyone]: I'd like to welcome
Howard Rheingold
[on monitor <769, 3 secs>] Guest says, "hello howard"
[on monitor <770, 0 secs>] . . .the camera zooms in on Howard. . .
[on monitor <771, 12 secs>] I swim in media soup.
[on monitor <772, 1 secs>] Jay [to Ralph124c41]: The test cases I was
pondering were: uploading a software package, uploading a mail
message, and editing a mail message online
[on monitor <773, 14 secs>] Guest says, "let howard say something"
[on monitor <774, 26 secs>] Ralph124c41 thinks; he doesn't look
anything like his description.
[on monitor <775, 22 secs>] Andre [to Howard]: Can I ask you to say
a few words
[on monitor <776, 3 secs>] Wade says, "Glad to meet you, Howard."
[on monitor <777, 67 secs>] Guest spins around
[on monitor <778, 1 secs>] Larry says, "I've been quiet, but I had
some things I wanted to say"
[on monitor <779, 12 secs>] Maximum number of speakers set to 20
[on monitor <780, 1 secs>] Guest says, "Hello Larry"
[on monitor <781, 20 secs>] Andre [to Howard]: Please req a speaker
spot
[on monitor <782, 7 secs>] Larry says, "One of the things was about
the correlation between anonymity and unacceptable behavior"
[on monitor <783, 1 secs>] Guilt disappears suddenly for parts
unknown.
[on monitor <784, 3 secs>] Andre says, "The question I would ask is:
You have studied a vast spectrum of virtual "communities""
[on monitor <785, 27 secs>] Guest says, "yeah ..."
[on monitor <786, 2 secs>] Andre says, "What kinds of common
problems/solutions do see emerging in these communities?"
[on monitor <787, 7 secs>] Larry says, "I don't think it is complete,
but I do think that, the sense that you aren't REALLY responsible for
what you say on LambdaMOO contributes a lot to unacceptable
behavior there"
[on monitor <788, 9 secs>] destae19 has disconnected.
[on monitor <789, 9 secs>] Larry says, "The second thing I wanted to
say was about privacy"
[on monitor <790, 5 secs>] Maximum number of speakers set to 22
[on monitor <791, 16 secs>] Jay [to Larry]: Cf JaysHouseMOO, where
everyone goes by their real names.
[on monitor <792, 9 secs>] Larry says, "I don't think people are
nearly aware of how many cases of spying, breaking, cracking
there've been on LambdaMOO"
[on monitor <793, 3 secs>] Larry says, "eavesdropping on private
conversations, etc."
[on monitor <794, 8 secs>] Andre [to Larry]: Go on...
[on monitor <795, 1 secs>] PeterK says, "interesting"
[on monitor <796, 24 secs>] Guest says, "How do we find that out?"
[on monitor <797, 1 secs>] Larry says, "well, there were several
cases that we knew about last year"
[on monitor <798, 10 secs>] destae19 has connected.
[on monitor <799, 4 secs>] Ralph124c41 says, "Or, in the email
context Larry, how many sysops routinely read all email."
[on monitor <800, 12 secs>] Jay has caught four people attempting to
eavesdrop on him, and probably more would have tried except he's
known to be clueful about this
list1 801 to 900
Ralph124c41 lists a section of rtape1000.
[on monitor <801, 33 secs>] Larry nods. "Yes, that's a similar
situation, isn't it, Ralph"
[on monitor <802, 1 secs>] Guest says, "Look what happened to
symantec and borland"
[on monitor <803, 11 secs>] Howard has disconnected.
[on monitor <804, 2 secs>] Ralph124c41 says, "but of course, a
simple rule is down't say anything you don't want overheard"
[on monitor <805, 11 secs>] Larry says, "However, the mechanisms
for encrypted electronic mail seem to be directed toward two-way
communication"
[on monitor <806, 3 secs>] Larry says, "Ralph, that's hardly
reasonable"
[on monitor <807, 2 secs>] Jay [to Ralph124c41]: Too bad ethernet
isn't secure.
[on monitor <808, 14 secs>] Guest says, "that's ok, but do we
voluntarily give up the first amendment?"
[on monitor <809, 8 secs>] Ralph124c41 says, "hmmmm, and why
not? "
[on monitor <810, 10 secs>] Guest says, "oh please..."
[on monitor <811, 15 secs>] Person says, "Yes, I was eavesdropped
on by a spy puppet right here in MediaMOO. It was Horrible!"
[on monitor <812, 1 secs>] Wade has to log off and head home now.
He says, "This was fun. Thanks for inviting me! I'd be happy to
correspond with any and all by e-mail."
[on monitor <813, 3 secs>] Daniel (painless) has arrived.
[on monitor <814, 3 secs>] Person is still recovering from the
psycho-damage.
[on monitor <815, 1 secs>] Mikol has disconnected.
[on monitor <816, 8 secs>] Larry says, "Yes, that's the simplest.
There've been a variety of other methods."
[on monitor <817, 1 secs>] Elizabeth says, "No, you don't give up the
first amendment, but if you choose to broadcast your words to a
large number of people, be prepared for the consequences."
[on monitor <818, 3 secs>] PeterK [to Wade]: Bye!
[on monitor <819, 5 secs>] Ralph124c41 says, "thanks Wade! we
appreciate you're coming by!"
[on monitor <820, 3 secs>] Wade says, "My pleasure."
[on monitor <821, 3 secs>] Jay has disconnected.
[on monitor <822, 1 secs>] Wade waves.
[on monitor <823, 1 secs>] Ralph124c41 waves enfusively
[on monitor <824, 2 secs>] Andre [to Wade]: BYE!!
[on monitor <825, 3 secs>] SARAH waves to wade
[on monitor <826, 13 secs>] PeterK waves
[on monitor <827, 1 secs>] Wade goes home.
[on monitor <828, 3 secs>] Rez waves
[on monitor <829, 3 secs>] Guest says, "Elizabth: good point, then the
struggle is to redefine what is appropriate (which is always
contested)..."
[on monitor <830, 17 secs>] Pisthetairos waves
[on monitor <831, 2 secs>] Larry says, "Well, I'd like to see whether
the 'threat' that your name might be revealed will reduce the
amount of aberant behavior."
[on monitor <832, 6 secs>] Guest wave and head explodes ... just
kidding
[on monitor <833, 16 secs>] Cerulean_Guest says, "An"
[on monitor <834, 8 secs>] Larry says, "unsocial behavior, that is"
[on monitor <835, 14 secs>] Guest says, "elizabeth, still there?"
[on monitor <836, 8 secs>] destae19 says, "oh andre"
[on monitor <837, 5 secs>] Elizabeth says, ""Far: I guess we have to
come up with the definition as a group."
[on monitor <838, 3 secs>] Jay has connected.
[on monitor <839, 2 secs>] Bacall says, "what constitutes spying,
eavesdropping?"
[on monitor <840, 16 secs>] Cerulean_Guest says, "Speaking of
names, any way to get a Guest name changed to something else? Bill
Shefski here.""
[on monitor <841, 1 secs>] PeterK [to Bill]: Hi!
[on monitor <842, 9 secs>] Person says, "Hi Bill."
[on monitor <843, 2 secs>] Andre says, "Hi, Bill!"
[on monitor <844, 1 secs>] destae19 says, "Ta!"
[on monitor <845, 2 secs>] Bacall says, "you need to put in a
character request"
[on monitor <846, 1 secs>] Guest says, "eliz: (name is Fal, ok)... who
do we let into the group, and how do we deal with different forms of
difference?"
[on monitor <847, 3 secs>] Cerulean_Guest says, "Hiya. Made it better
late than never.""
[on monitor <848, 22 secs>] SARAH says, "hi bill"
[on monitor <849, 5 secs>] Cerulean_Guest says, "Character req. will
do""
[on monitor <850, 5 secs>] Person [to Bacall]: when the character is
not really there, but an object they create is reocrding, listening to
everythjng that happens in the room.
[on monitor <851, 0 secs>] . . . the camera pans left to right over
Autumn Conference Room . . .
[on monitor <852, 0 secs>] A mellow, comfortable room with lots
of sofas and couches. Outside, the trees along Memorial Drive are a
luminous golden color, and whitecaps are showing on the windswept
Charles River Basin. The faint odour of burning leaves drifts in
through an open window.
[on monitor <853, 12 secs>]
[on monitor <854, 1 secs>] Guest jumps in front of the camera
[on monitor <855, 5 secs>] Mirror goes home.
[on monitor <856, 6 secs>] The housekeeper arrives to cart Howard
off to bed.
[on monitor <857, 3 secs>] Andre combs his hair
[on monitor <858, 1 secs>] Bacall says, "I didn't realize that could be
done"
[on monitor <859, 3 secs>] Scamper says, "what was the easy way to
type whisper into the moo?"
[on monitor <860, 17 secs>] Elizabeth says, "Sorry Fal, mistype, I still
think there are some basics that the community can agree upon."
[on monitor <861, 13 secs>] Guest says, "eliz: tell me mrore about
fischer"
[on monitor <862, 1 secs>] SARAH says, "what do you mean
scamper"
[on monitor <863, 13 secs>] Jay [to Person]: Actually, when someone
not known to the participants is receiving what happens in the room.
[on monitor <864, 15 secs>] Elizabeth says, "Who's fischer?"
[on monitor <865, 1 secs>] Guest says, "Michael Fischer, the
anthropologist you talked about. "
[on monitor <866, 10 secs>] Scamper says, "somebody mentioned an
easy way to whisper before, could you repeat it?"
[on monitor <867, 0 secs>] Jay says, "mu name message"
[on monitor <868, 3 secs>] The housekeeper arrives to cart Mikol off
to bed.
[on monitor <869, 10 secs>] Guest says, "is he the one who wrote
with Marcus on Anthro as Cultural Critique"
[on monitor <870, 2 secs>] Guilt materializes out of thin air.
[on monitor <871, 3 secs>] Andre says, "I'd like to know about a
shorthand whisper as well"
[on monitor <872, 23 secs>] Azure_Guest says, "yes please tell us
how to whisper more efficiently"
[on monitor <873, 4 secs>] Bacall says, "How do you whisper?"
[on monitor <874, 15 secs>] Elizabeth says, "Fal: I'm afraid I don't
remember at all, I feel clueless."
[on monitor <875, 3 secs>] Guest says, "that's ok, maybe it was
someone else..."
[on monitor <876, 3 secs>] Ralph124c41 says, "you know how to
whisper, you just pucker up and blow."
[on monitor <877, 2 secs>] Amy says, "well, I should be going"
[on monitor <878, 1 secs>] Guest says, "I'm so confused"
[on monitor <879, 4 secs>] Andre says, "wsmr.simtel-20.mil"
[on monitor <880, 2 secs>] Jay | >mu guest foo
[on monitor <881, 1 secs>] Andre waves
[on monitor <882, 1 secs>] PeterK [to Amy]: Bye!
[on monitor <883, 1 secs>] Guest says, "tis Zima is great!"
[on monitor <884, 0 secs>] Jay | You whisper, "foo" to Guest.
[on monitor <885, 3 secs>] Andre says, "Bye Amy!"
[on monitor <886, 1 secs>] Azure_Guest wave bye
[on monitor <887, 0 secs>] Elizabeth wave
[on monitor <888, 1 secs>] PeterK waves to amy
[on monitor <889, 0 secs>] Person says, "Amy, thanks for soming by."
[on monitor <890, 1 secs>] Bacall says, "bye amy"
[on monitor <891, 1 secs>] Albert waves to Amy.
[on monitor <892, 2 secs>] Jay waves
[on monitor <893, 3 secs>] SARAH waves to amy
[on monitor <894, 2 secs>] Amy says, "thank you all for an intersting
discussion-- one of the more interesting we've had here"
[on monitor <895, 1 secs>] destae19 says, "TA!"
[on monitor <896, 1 secs>] Ralph124c41 says, "Hey, amy, thanks, it's
been terrific, although i think we probably had more beer than you
did."
[on monitor <897, 6 secs>] Amy waves
[on monitor <898, 1 secs>] Ralph124c41 waves
[on monitor <899, 1 secs>] Guest says, "please stay in touch"
[on monitor <900, 13 secs>] Person thinks she likes us.
list1 901 to 1000
Ralph124c41 lists a section of rtape1000.
[on monitor <901, 1 secs>] Guest thinks ...
[on monitor <902, 1 secs>] Amy does
[on monitor <903, 1 secs>] Amy smiles
[on monitor <904, 19 secs>] Amy goes home.
[on monitor <905, 2 secs>] Guest does handstand across the room
[on monitor <906, 13 secs>] Person says, "Three cheers for Amy!"
[on monitor <907, 1 secs>] Andre says, "Well, I wonder - what
happens when this stuff gets *really* public?"
[on monitor <908, 9 secs>] Ralph124c41 says, "hip., hip....."
[on monitor <909, 3 secs>] Guilt goes out.
[on monitor <910, 3 secs>] Bacall disappears suddenly for parts
unknown.
[on monitor <911, 4 secs>] Guest says, "Too hip to care, and too
drunk to stop it"
[on monitor <912, 19 secs>] Cerulean_Guest says, "Bill S
says...@rename request denied. O well. "
[on monitor <913, 6 secs>] Guest says, "can I go wee?"
[on monitor <914, 2 secs>] Andre [to Bill]: That will probably only
work with a character, not a guest.
[on monitor <915, 2 secs>] Scamper says, "yes"
[on monitor <916, 2 secs>] Ralph124c41 says, "not where you are at
present"
[on monitor <917, 2 secs>] Person suggests the RL bathroom.
[on monitor <918, 1 secs>] Guest says, "Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee......"
[on monitor <919, 1 secs>] Cerulean_Guest says, "How many are still
here from CA?""
[on monitor <920, 7 secs>] Jay [to Andre]: LambdaMOO got too big
and there are a number of new MOOs because of it.
[on monitor <921, 15 secs>] Ralph124c41 says, "everybody"
[on monitor <922, 1 secs>] Ralph124c41 says, "i think, if you mean
ca is this one room here"
[on monitor <923, 16 secs>] destae19 says, "what is ca?"
[on monitor <924, 3 secs>] Ralph124c41 says, "CAlifornia"
[on monitor <925, 1 secs>] Daniel (painless) goes out.
[on monitor <926, 1 secs>] Andre says, "CA = California, UCLA, to be
exact"
[on monitor <927, 2 secs>] Cerulean_Guest says, "are you all in the
same room? CA is the Great State of California.""
[on monitor <928, 4 secs>] Jay is from Minnesota.
[on monitor <929, 2 secs>] destae19 says, "or is that conversation
analysis"
[on monitor <930, 6 secs>] Albert is at MIT.
[on monitor <931, 4 secs>] Andre says, "There are 16 of us in the
same room."
[on monitor <932, 2 secs>] Guest says, "I'm from the state of
confusion"
[on monitor <933, 9 secs>] Ralph124c41 says, "yep, everybody's in
the same room, buck naked"
[on monitor <934, 10 secs>] Scamper says, "does it really matter
where you're from?"
[on monitor <935, 0 secs>] Guest says, "No, only where you go"
[on monitor <936, 2 secs>] Rez says, "Yes, we're all in the same room
so we have interesting non-MOO back-channels going on (see Ralph's
message...)"
[on monitor <937, 17 secs>] Scamper says, "what's with all the
meaning enhancement?"
[on monitor <938, 2 secs>] Person says, "Does it really matter if
you're naked?"
[on monitor <939, 1 secs>] Ralph124c41 says, "hey, they only thing
you have to worry about in CA is being allegic to chlorine (in the hot
tub here)"
[on monitor <940, 0 secs>] Cerulean_Guest says, "Peter, what affect
do you think the fact that all of those 16 will have to be face to face
at some point has on how they cyber-project?""
[on monitor <941, 3 secs>] Guest says, "I need to go here, there,
everywhere"
[on monitor <942, 24 secs>] Guest says, "follow me"
[on monitor <943, 9 secs>] PeterK says, "I'm sure it has a large
effect"
[on monitor <944, 0 secs>] Person agrees.
[on monitor <945, 11 secs>] Andre [to Jay]: Re:size - When Lambda
got too big, what was straing?
[on monitor <946, 2 secs>] PeterK says, "good question"
[on monitor <947, 4 secs>] Guest says, "test 123"
[on monitor <948, 33 secs>] SARAH says, ""
[on monitor <949, 8 secs>] Ralph124c41 says, "oh lord the beer
fumes are begining to float the room!"
[on monitor <950, 16 secs>] Jay [to Andre]: The server, both in
memory and response time. The community too, which was already
talked about, I think
[on monitor <951, 1 secs>] Pisthetairos says, "how can a MOO be
*too* big?"
[on monitor <952, 5 secs>] Andre says, "I expected the technical
limitations, but they'll go away some day."
[on monitor <953, 5 secs>] Ralph124c41 sing
[on monitor <954, 2 secs>] Ralph124c41 singing
[on monitor <955, 4 secs>] Andre says, "I would like to know more
about the social limits...!"
[on monitor <956, 0 secs>] Jay isn't that optimistic, Andre
[on monitor <957, 4 secs>] Guest burps
[on monitor <958, 8 secs>] Rez stops Ralph from singing
[on monitor <959, 13 secs>] Ralph124c41 says, "oh, I am the man,
the very fat man, that waters the worker's beer...."
[on monitor <960, 18 secs>] Andre [to Jay]: Ok, maybe there will
remain technical troubles, but the social ones are still central, I think.
[on monitor <961, 1 secs>] Jay doesn't really know what happened,
just that fewer people that he liked would show up and stay.
[on monitor <962, 19 secs>] Elizabeth says, "Ralph, there are still
more beers left!"
[on monitor <963, 1 secs>] Andre . o O ( hmmmmm.... )
[on monitor <964, 4 secs>] Ralph124c41 says, "so many beers, so
little time...."
[on monitor <965, 10 secs>] Yea drops Megabeer.
[on monitor <966, 3 secs>] Cerulean_Guest rolls eyes
[on monitor <967, 13 secs>] destae19 says, "uuummmmmm beeer"
[on monitor <968, 2 secs>] Andre says, "There is something that a
community needs, that it looses when it grows too big."
[on monitor <969, 11 secs>] Rez rolls Cerulean_Guest's eyes back to
him
[on monitor <970, 1 secs>] Jay says, "Oh, and there was a huge
backlash against the so-called `Power Elite' which was really more of
a rebellion against the social conventions of the MOO."
[on monitor <971, 2 secs>] Jay nodsnods
[on monitor <972, 10 secs>] Cerulean_Guest says, "Good cathc, rez.""
[on monitor <973, 9 secs>] Jay <- radical decentralist
[on monitor <974, 0 secs>] Andre as well
[on monitor <975, 5 secs>] Elizabeth says, "The group loses
accountability among its members. The anonymity allows them to
free ride."
[on monitor <976, 13 secs>] PeterK [to Jay]: no central planning for
you, eh?
[on monitor <977, 7 secs>] Cerulean_Guest says, "Is there a wizard
present. I hate cerulean blue.""
[on monitor <978, 4 secs>] Andre says, "What Lambda conventions
were criticised?"
[on monitor <979, 25 secs>] Ralph124c41 says, "yeah, but the center
has to find a way to hold..."
[on monitor <980, 20 secs>] Person says, "So create a world where
they can freeride to their hearts content and maybe they won't want
to come to places where that kind of behavior is not requested,
desired."
[on monitor <981, 6 secs>] Rez says, "But what is a free ride.
Sometimes we'd probably prefer it if a character did NOT speak.
Silence has its place (in music, in conversation, in MOOs?)"
[on monitor <982, 3 secs>] Pisthetairos says, "What is going to
happen when the'public finds out that explicit materialcan be
accessed thru the net? will there be a major crackdown, thus laws
imposed on cyberspace by external gov'ts?"
[on monitor <983, 2 secs>] Jay [to Andre]: Restrictions to `themely'
building. Exiling obnoxious players.
[on monitor <984, 31 secs>] Andre says, "Again, the solution to social
problems is seen as "more (un)realestate!"
[on monitor <985, 1 secs>] Yea picks up Megabeer.
[on monitor <986, 8 secs>] Jay [to Pisthetairos]: Oh, it happens every
couple weeks, some big article about `university promotes smut' or
something like that. Seems to die down pretty fast.
[on monitor <987, 4 secs>] Yea disappears suddenly for parts
unknown.
[on monitor <988, 10 secs>] Elizabeth says, "Rez, good point."
[on monitor <989, 6 secs>] Ralph124c41 says, "yo, Pis--when J.
Helms gets wind of this bet ytou're last buck the shit will hit the fan"
[on monitor <990, 24 secs>] Andre [to Pisthetairos]: the porno on the
net argument does come up a good deal.
[on monitor <991, 0 secs>] Jay's tenative solution to the size of the
community is not to see his MOO as a city, but more of a long party
with the wizards as hosts.
[on monitor <992, 11 secs>] Cerulean_Guest goes out.
[on monitor <993, 23 secs>] Person says, "Yes, I agree that
restrictions, exclusion is necessary to create and maintain a
subcommunity."
[on monitor <994, 1 secs>] Jay feels free to throw obnoxious people
out of his parties in real life, so...
[on monitor <995, 10 secs>] PeterK says, "But what if you want
something more organized than a part?""
[on monitor <996, 4 secs>] Andre says, "Inclusion presupposes
exclusion."
[on monitor <997, 13 secs>] Person agrees with Jay's point.
[on monitor <998, 11 secs>] Person says, "So true, Andre."
[on monitor <999, 16 secs>] PeterK says, "But that's the benevolent
dictator approach.."
[on monitor <1000, 41 secs>] Andre says, "And is just an other
leviathan..."
END OF TAPE 1
TAPE 2
[on monitor <1, 739587793 secs>] pause
[on monitor <2, 0 secs>] . . . the camera pans left to right over
Autumn Conference Room . . .
[on monitor <3, 0 secs>] A mellow, comfortable room with lots of
sofas and couches. Outside, the trees along Memorial Drive are a
luminous golden color, and whitecaps are showing on the windswept
Charles River Basin. The faint odour of burning leaves drifts in
through an open window.
[on monitor <4, 5 secs>]
[on monitor <5, 1 secs>] destae]]></plaintext></div></div> 